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If we play the Crabs next summer (2018 teams), our coach is going to suggest that we play half of the game with the teams as they are and the other half of the game only with kids born after 9/1/99.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
If we play the Crabs next summer (2018 teams), our coach is going to suggest that we play half of the game with the teams as they are and the other half of the game only with kids born after 9/1/99.


If you're a parent of a HS freshman and your kid is on a club team playing in top tier events that include teams like the Crabs, then it's time to stop obsessing about the birthdates of kids in the same grade. I'm not associated with crabs or parent of holdback. Your whining is contagious to your kids

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[quote=Anonymous]Man all this talk of holdbacks over and over again. I was never thinking about holding my son back, but after hearing over and over again about it I think I am going to go fill the paper work out today.
LOL [/quote

While you find it LOL, It is big part of the Crabs and MIAA schools now. Any roster of Crabs or MIAA HS teams will have many players heldback. While redshirting in college and the occasional child held back has always been around, this epidemic now of children held back in kindergarten, 8th grade, etc is completely out of control. All in the name of getting ahead.

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If your son is a goalie, this may seem contrarian but it is best to have him with a program that has goalie position coaching. How good the team is in front of him can also be a liability. Some club teams are so dynamite the goalies only see 3-4 shots a game and that makes nearly impossible for them to develop in game situations and to show out well when they get to a recruiting age. Being on the best team can in some ways be the worst thing for a goalie.

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Do the kids crave being held back a grade, or is it something parents decide for their kids to get them noticed in a sport?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Do the kids crave being held back a grade, or is it something parents decide for their kids to get them noticed in a sport?


it's the parents of course

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Can apply to kids on the defensive side of the field also. A very good team with dominate FOG / middies & attack can make things very boring on the defensive side of the field. There are some advantages to playing on lesser team and being challenged more often. Ample opportunities to shine defensively against stronger teams. mak
Originally Posted by Anonymous
If your son is a goalie, this may seem contrarian but it is best to have him with a program that has goalie position coaching. How good the team is in front of him can also be a liability. Some club teams are so dynamite the goalies only see 3-4 shots a game and that makes nearly impossible for them to develop in game situations and to show out well when they get to a recruiting age. Being on the best team can in some ways be the worst thing for a goalie.

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So like I said the player will and should want to win. But as parents you have to be smart and put them on a team thats best for them and the skills/postion. So full circle winning is not the most important thing for the player/parent. Wanting to win playing to WIN yes important going 15-0 compared to 13-2 or 8-8 all the same if its the best for your child / teen.

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As the father of a goalie, I would like my son to practice against the best... if the team he is on is good, he likely is seeing good shots from the best in practice. Practice and training is where you get better.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Do the kids crave being held back a grade, or is it something parents decide for their kids to get them noticed in a sport?


it's the parents of course


one of 3d's parrot heads tweeted about a 6'4, 220lb pole from Edge lacrosse.

he is a 2019.

God above, what is wrong with us? I have a son in that grade who is normal size for a 13 year old 8th grader and for safety reasons alone would be horrified to put him out there against this kid. No wait, that would make me a sissy, right?

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The new rules will protect your 2019, even if the Cascade R won't......

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
The new rules will protect your 2019, even if the Cascade R won't......


What new rules? The one where Jack in the bean stalk hands out beans on the sidelines to the normal 13 year olds to consume so they can magically grow enough to be safe on the field. Did you mean this as some form of a joke? Ohio State started 7 skill position players smaller than 6'4 220 lbs last night, and Oregon started 8.

It might be time for Canadian juniors to become a professional league. Honestly, just have the 15, 16 year old savants in this sport go pro and do time at some whatever Canadian parochial school like St. Cats. And the NCAA could not make them ineligible either...BOX lacrosse can be defined as a different sport than FIELD lacrosse. And the new Big 5 rules will soon eventually mean that kids can earn some income from their sport up to certain monetary limits which would be offset against any stipends given to the "amateur" NCAA athletes.

Seriously, what about a professional minor league for lacrosse players? Instead of this reclassified racket, just cut through all the hypocrisy of they are going to this or that prep school for an education primarily and ship them off to a juniors professional league. The ringers can play at a high level to prepare for some career in lacrosse be that college, NLL, MLL, LXM or whatever. Then my kid can play with kids his age, have fun and call it a day when he finishes playing high school. Everybody happier that way?

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Settle down. It's not that big of a deal, dad. Get some looser panties.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Settle down. It's not that big of a deal, dad. Get some looser panties.


Get some size 48s for yourself Ryan. Yeah, no big deal when there are 6'4 220lb 16 year old 8th graders out there playing in 2019 tournaments. Nothing to see there, keep moving.

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I have watched 100s of lacrosse games at these tournaments. There is one big hit a day not game. And it comes from some little kid running full speed into a pile and hitting someone he was not even aiming for. The big poles on D you are so scared of do push the smaller kids to the ground but as for a real hit 1 a day. And most of the biggest kids are so scared to hit anyone because they get flagged before they breath on a smaller kid. Do not worry a dad or mom like you will be yelling to the refs the big kid is playing to rough way before someone gets hurt.

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The funny part is that, with Edge, it will be 6'4 220lb 16 year old 9TH graders out there playing in 2019 tournaments.

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Why are the Crabs allowing the Edge organization to play in Young Gunz this year knowing that this is what they do with their teams especially 2019, 2020 and 2021? Sure way to bring the tournament down.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Why are the Crabs allowing the Edge organization to play in Young Gunz this year knowing that this is what they do with their teams especially 2019, 2020 and 2021? Sure way to bring the tournament down.


Not sure it is fair to isolate criticism against Crabs when pretty much all the tournament vendors like Adrenaline, NXT, and 3d are equally ambivalent. And whomever the idiot is who posted he watches 100s of games and there are few "big hits" in terms of checks, yeah, we all know that. What you also see is a lot of physical contact on GBs, face-off wing play, and picks. Picks can be vicious collisions when a shrimp sized 13 year old runs his helmet straight into the chest padding of say a 6'4 220lb 18 grader who is 16 years old. Maybe you're getting older and your attention span isn't holding up so well watching those 100s of games because I can't make it through a Saturday tournament without throwing up in my mouth over the size and age inequities on the field. If these Canadian kids are so farm tough, what are they afraid of exactly? Playing kids their same age?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Why are the Crabs allowing the Edge organization to play in Young Gunz this year knowing that this is what they do with their teams especially 2019, 2020 and 2021? Sure way to bring the tournament down.


Not sure it is fair to isolate criticism against Crabs when pretty much all the tournament vendors like Adrenaline, NXT, and 3d are equally ambivalent. And whomever the idiot is who posted he watches 100s of games and there are few "big hits" in terms of checks, yeah, we all know that. What you also see is a lot of physical contact on GBs, face-off wing play, and picks. Picks can be vicious collisions when a shrimp sized 13 year old runs his helmet straight into the chest padding of say a 6'4 220lb 18 grader who is 16 years old. Maybe you're getting older and your attention span isn't holding up so well watching those 100s of games because I can't make it through a Saturday tournament without throwing up in my mouth over the size and age inequities on the field. If these Canadian kids are so farm tough, what are they afraid of exactly? Playing kids their same age?


Not trying to criticize Crabs but this is a Crabs thread. All promoters do seem to allow it but Crabs holds itself as being a premier tourney sponsor - not one of the take all teams tournaments. They could easily set an example and then fill that spot with a talented team but instead they are choosing to allow Edge to play when they know the deal. Agree 100% that when you watch these huge kids setting picks and headhunting etc., you could do nothing but agree it is a safety issue. Hoping Crabs takes the first step and says no and takes it a bit further and does real grade/age verification for their tournaments.

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LOL at the ubiquitous sightings of a 6'4", 220lb 8th grader on this thread.

Hyperbole much?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
LOL at the ubiquitous sightings of a 6'4", 220lb 8th grader on this thread.

Hyperbole much?


Look at Casey Vock's tweet today with a link to the 2019 Edge player...who is a 6'4 220lb 8th grader. Hyperbole not so much.

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Ok do we know this kids birthday or are we just assuming he is a re class kid? I would of hated to be Shaqs parents, they must have to carry his birth records everywhere they go. Which I would do.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Ok do we know this kids birthday or are we just assuming he is a re class kid? I would of hated to be Shaqs parents, they must have to carry his birth records everywhere they go. Which I would do.


Look at the Age Verification forum. There are actual screen shots from Edge's website that indicate they want 2018 for 2019 team, 2019 for 2020 etc. as well as an ongoing discussion about how their teams are a full year older than their grad year. Their reasoning is that the kids are going to do a PG year when they finish high school so they are prepping them for college. If you have ever played the Edge 2019 team, you would understand further complicated by their style of play encouraged by their coaches because they know they are significantly bigger.

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I have played them and I do recall them being older now you mention it. They beat us pretty good. But I am a learn more from losing kind of guy. And as long as all the teams we played that day where not bigger and older I was cool with my kid getting beat around a little.

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It's all cool until someone gets a concussion . . .

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I have played them and I do recall them being older now you mention it. They beat us pretty good. But I am a learn more from losing kind of guy. And as long as all the teams we played that day where not bigger and older I was cool with my kid getting beat around a little.


I think this is more of a safety issue than a competitive one. I have one son who was always a strong player and was played up whenever possible, so we made that decision. Our next son isn't nearly as early advanced in terms of size or his skill, and we have never pushed him to play up or has he ever been invited to play up. When his team takes the field against Edge, and this club and Canadian clubs fully advantage the system and EVERY kid on the team is older because that is their overt strategy to gain an advantage. Now, Canadian kids are generally ones who do not apply to American colleges with competitive academic credentials, and it is nothing new that sports is a passport to get a degree from an American college. I do believe that with Canadians the dream is an Amercian college degree and scholarship first, and then the prestige of an NCAA sport second, so I am less brutal on them as a herd of older kids than this lame Baltimore way of doing it only for sports. Just my opinion. Also my opinion is I am bothered one of my sons plays on a field with kids who are so much bigger and mature that is is a safety issue for my wife and I. That is the thing I do not like. Give me the discretion to put my sons out there with older kids if they can hang and are not at an unacceptable safety risk. Do not take that discretion away from me and force me to put a son out there with kids who are unacceptably bigger and more mature because there is this new discretion to "play down". I like all of the life lessons in sports, and competing hard and sometimes losing, and losing with the grace of a sportsman is very important. Frankly, playing down to me is just cowering and showing at some level a lack of competitive spirit and respect for the sportsmanship that should be a part of lacrosse, but is lost now in the club game. Another issue is a kid who plays up grows a confidence a kid who plays down can never attain. At some levels your held back kids will eventually -- and should -- feel their accomplishments are lessened because of the playing down asterisk. In sports there has always been a disgust for drug cheats. The age gaming is becoming a second loathed thing and I do not see that as unfair. If my kid asked me to reclassify I would say no. I would tell him college lacrosse like high school lacrosse is a fun thing to do and say you did, but it in reality it only adds a few more years to playing a kids' game. Most lacrosse parents crazed on this never played a sport in college, and if they did at a high Division 1 level I doubt they would be this irrational to push it.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
It's all cool until someone gets a concussion . . .


Agreed...there is the usual contact but not with this team. Last year, an opposing team had two concussions in one game and another team in another game had a broken arm- all from excessive roughness. Playing a more challenging team is good for kids. Playing kids who are well into manhood when the other team has not hit puberty is just dangerous and promoters should be asking for verification of grade/age from all teams rather than turning their backs.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I have played them and I do recall them being older now you mention it. They beat us pretty good. But I am a learn more from losing kind of guy. And as long as all the teams we played that day where not bigger and older I was cool with my kid getting beat around a little.


I think this is more of a safety issue than a competitive one. I have one son who was always a strong player and was played up whenever possible, so we made that decision. Our next son isn't nearly as early advanced in terms of size or his skill, and we have never pushed him to play up or has he ever been invited to play up. When his team takes the field against Edge, and this club and Canadian clubs fully advantage the system and EVERY kid on the team is older because that is their overt strategy to gain an advantage. Now, Canadian kids are generally ones who do not apply to American colleges with competitive academic credentials, and it is nothing new that sports is a passport to get a degree from an American college. I do believe that with Canadians the dream is an Amercian college degree and scholarship first, and then the prestige of an NCAA sport second, so I am less brutal on them as a herd of older kids than this lame Baltimore way of doing it only for sports. Just my opinion. Also my opinion is I am bothered one of my sons plays on a field with kids who are so much bigger and mature that is is a safety issue for my wife and I. That is the thing I do not like. Give me the discretion to put my sons out there with older kids if they can hang and are not at an unacceptable safety risk. Do not take that discretion away from me and force me to put a son out there with kids who are unacceptably bigger and more mature because there is this new discretion to "play down". I like all of the life lessons in sports, and competing hard and sometimes losing, and losing with the grace of a sportsman is very important. Frankly, playing down to me is just cowering and showing at some level a lack of competitive spirit and respect for the sportsmanship that should be a part of lacrosse, but is lost now in the club game. Another issue is a kid who plays up grows a confidence a kid who plays down can never attain. At some levels your held back kids will eventually -- and should -- feel their accomplishments are lessened because of the playing down asterisk. In sports there has always been a disgust for drug cheats. The age gaming is becoming a second loathed thing and I do not see that as unfair. If my kid asked me to reclassify I would say no. I would tell him college lacrosse like high school lacrosse is a fun thing to do and say you did, but it in reality it only adds a few more years to playing a kids' game. Most lacrosse parents crazed on this never played a sport in college, and if they did at a high Division 1 level I doubt they would be this irrational to push it.


Well said!

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I guess this is another question for everyone who loves there club owners and they all can do no wrong. If they have your kids best intrest at heart why are they not pulling out and saying we will not play these older "cheating" teams. I think that might be the bigger questions. As for your kid at risk of getting hurt you should pull him from the game and or team. You are the parent and its your child. So they might be cheaters but you are all chickens for not pulling your sons if there is a real fear on your part.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I guess this is another question for everyone who loves there club owners and they all can do no wrong. If they have your kids best intrest at heart why are they not pulling out and saying we will not play these older "cheating" teams. I think that might be the bigger questions. As for your kid at risk of getting hurt you should pull him from the game and or team. You are the parent and its your child. So they might be cheaters but you are all chickens for not pulling your sons if there is a real fear on your part.


Everything our country was founded on. That should be on our money.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I have played them and I do recall them being older now you mention it. They beat us pretty good. But I am a learn more from losing kind of guy. And as long as all the teams we played that day where not bigger and older I was cool with my kid getting beat around a little.


I think this is more of a safety issue than a competitive one. I have one son who was always a strong player and was played up whenever possible, so we made that decision. Our next son isn't nearly as early advanced in terms of size or his skill, and we have never pushed him to play up or has he ever been invited to play up. When his team takes the field against Edge, and this club and Canadian clubs fully advantage the system and EVERY kid on the team is older because that is their overt strategy to gain an advantage. Now, Canadian kids are generally ones who do not apply to American colleges with competitive academic credentials, and it is nothing new that sports is a passport to get a degree from an American college. I do believe that with Canadians the dream is an Amercian college degree and scholarship first, and then the prestige of an NCAA sport second, so I am less brutal on them as a herd of older kids than this lame Baltimore way of doing it only for sports. Just my opinion. Also my opinion is I am bothered one of my sons plays on a field with kids who are so much bigger and mature that is is a safety issue for my wife and I. That is the thing I do not like. Give me the discretion to put my sons out there with older kids if they can hang and are not at an unacceptable safety risk. Do not take that discretion away from me and force me to put a son out there with kids who are unacceptably bigger and more mature because there is this new discretion to "play down".


I find the Canadians of playing the entire team down while in an older grade more disgusting than the disgusting way Balt has holdbacks at Kindergarten and 8th grade . With MD teams at least the whole team isn't playing down. Both should be playing at their age until HS. I still have a hard time understanding how these Canadians teams get away with this. This is outrageous!!

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
I have played them and I do recall them being older now you mention it. They beat us pretty good. But I am a learn more from losing kind of guy. And as long as all the teams we played that day where not bigger and older I was cool with my kid getting beat around a little.


I think this is more of a safety issue than a competitive one. I have one son who was always a strong player and was played up whenever possible, so we made that decision. Our next son isn't nearly as early advanced in terms of size or his skill, and we have never pushed him to play up or has he ever been invited to play up. When his team takes the field against Edge, and this club and Canadian clubs fully advantage the system and EVERY kid on the team is older because that is their overt strategy to gain an advantage. Now, Canadian kids are generally ones who do not apply to American colleges with competitive academic credentials, and it is nothing new that sports is a passport to get a degree from an American college. I do believe that with Canadians the dream is an Amercian college degree and scholarship first, and then the prestige of an NCAA sport second, so I am less brutal on them as a herd of older kids than this lame Baltimore way of doing it only for sports. Just my opinion. Also my opinion is I am bothered one of my sons plays on a field with kids who are so much bigger and mature that is is a safety issue for my wife and I. That is the thing I do not like. Give me the discretion to put my sons out there with older kids if they can hang and are not at an unacceptable safety risk. Do not take that discretion away from me and force me to put a son out there with kids who are unacceptably bigger and more mature because there is this new discretion to "play down". I like all of the life lessons in sports, and competing hard and sometimes losing, and losing with the grace of a sportsman is very important. Frankly, playing down to me is just cowering and showing at some level a lack of competitive spirit and respect for the sportsmanship that should be a part of lacrosse, but is lost now in the club game. Another issue is a kid who plays up grows a confidence a kid who plays down can never attain. At some levels your held back kids will eventually -- and should -- feel their accomplishments are lessened because of the playing down asterisk. In sports there has always been a disgust for drug cheats. The age gaming is becoming a second loathed thing and I do not see that as unfair. If my kid asked me to reclassify I would say no. I would tell him college lacrosse like high school lacrosse is a fun thing to do and say you did, but it in reality it only adds a few more years to playing a kids' game. Most lacrosse parents crazed on this never played a sport in college, and if they did at a high Division 1 level I doubt they would be this irrational to push it.


Well said!


Agreed, very well said. Sadly, it is the attorneys who will resolve this issue. And benefit from it. I would be very concerned if I was a club owner, tournament director or investor in a program like 3d. They have significant exposure.
BTW, I heard Dewey, Screwem and Howe LLP is sponsoring a team in the next 3d event. Bunch of smart, liberal trial attorney's kids. Not big or athletic, but age appropriate. Watch out!

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
I guess this is another question for everyone who loves there club owners and they all can do no wrong. If they have your kids best intrest at heart why are they not pulling out and saying we will not play these older "cheating" teams. I think that might be the bigger questions. As for your kid at risk of getting hurt you should pull him from the game and or team. You are the parent and its your child. So they might be cheaters but you are all chickens for not pulling your sons if there is a real fear on your part.


I'm the prior poster you replied to. I guess you are right, there is always the option of pulling a son out of a sport for fear of safety. Consider the equity in that statement though. My younger son will not play varsity as a freshman and is very unlikely to play more than club level lacrosse in college, but he has made great friends playing on a lacrosse team and he enjoys it. He would be worse off emotionally and self esteem wise if we pulled him out of lacrosse and told him to pick something else. He hates baseball and swimming, and I think would always resent being pulled away. But if there is a mercenary mentality that this is lacrosse, so get on or get off the bus the point is not going to be negotiable.

Does anyone on this board think that is just the way it goes, and too bad for a kid like this? Sure there is no rule yet against the Canadians assembling full play down teams, and there isn't a rule against gaming the grade based system for middle school aged kids in Maryland. And now the plain bottom line is families are in full "son needs to get noticed" recruiting mode prep in 7th grade now that kids are being recruited as 8th graders. There is a kid on my son's club 2019 team who is already making visits to colleges and this is not even into his 8th grade spring NPYLL league season. What about the middle school kids who would like to play for enjoyment and are humble and mature enough (or at least moreso than their parents) to know their chances of playing college lacrosse are low?

As parents are any of you really ok with a sport system where if you have a problem with your 12-13 year old son getting mauled by kids materially older, more mature and bigger then you should just leave and do something another sport?

Constructive comments most welcome. I am not trying to sell something, just trying to make a good decision for my son.

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For the people of privilege the unfairness of it does not resonate. The private school / country clubers want little Johnny to hopefully play HS and college lacrosse by any means necessary!

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I believe the vast majority of parents are absolutely not ok with this growing epidemic. The fact that U.S. Lacrosse is remaining totally silent on the issue, is emblematic of how toothless the organization is. Their defense is that they cannot control what parents or tournament organizations do. Though true, it does not prevent USL from coming out with strong guidelines on single year, age based competition. A prior poster has it correct, what will stem this tide are the attorneys. Unfortunately a kid will get badly injured and the parents will sue tthe holdback's parents, the team, organization, tournament director and most importantly, U.S. Lacrosse. Then we'll see how quickly things change. It's a sad realization that it's not child safety that will alter the playing field, it is money.

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Next you guys are going to complain that your freshman son is going up against older kids in HS.

LOL. Grow a pair.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Why are the Crabs allowing the Edge organization to play in Young Gunz this year knowing that this is what they do with their teams especially 2019, 2020 and 2021? Sure way to bring the tournament down.


Not sure it is fair to isolate criticism against Crabs when pretty much all the tournament vendors like Adrenaline, NXT, and 3d are equally ambivalent. And whomever the idiot is who posted he watches 100s of games and there are few "big hits" in terms of checks, yeah, we all know that. What you also see is a lot of physical contact on GBs, face-off wing play, and picks. Picks can be vicious collisions when a shrimp sized 13 year old runs his helmet straight into the chest padding of say a 6'4 220lb 18 grader who is 16 years old. Maybe you're getting older and your attention span isn't holding up so well watching those 100s of games because I can't make it through a Saturday tournament without throwing up in my mouth over the size and age inequities on the field. If these Canadian kids are so farm tough, what are they afraid of exactly? Playing kids their same age?


Not trying to criticize Crabs but this is a Crabs thread. All promoters do seem to allow it but Crabs holds itself as being a premier tourney sponsor - not one of the take all teams tournaments. They could easily set an example and then fill that spot with a talented team but instead they are choosing to allow Edge to play when they know the deal. Agree 100% that when you watch these huge kids setting picks and headhunting etc., you could do nothing but agree it is a safety issue. Hoping Crabs takes the first step and says no and takes it a bit further and does real grade/age verification for their tournaments.


How exactly is the Crabs organization or 3D going to bar another club who does the same thing they are doing, just with a whole team instead of some players? 3D is a big proponent of holdbacks, they play kids at one grad year one week and another the next, regardless of the grade the players are actually in. JM held his own kid back, and pushes it to players.

Clubs want to win games and get players recruited, it is good for business.

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Re: Crabs Lacrosse / Baltimore Lacrosse Club
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I guess my question is there is tons of options for your son to play lacrosse? He does not have to play on a top level travel A or AA team to play lacrosse. The name alone tells you what the NPYLL is all about. Just read the website and see how they describe the league. Join a C level or B level travel team and you will be safe from harm of the crazy parents and there cheating kids.

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“Children aren’t coloring books. You don’t get to fill them in with your favorite colors.” Dr. Wayne Dyer

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[quote=Anonymous]Next you guys are going to complain that your freshman son is going up against older kids in HS.

LOL. Grow a pair. [/quote

Nobody is complaining about high school, you moron. Playing against older boys in HS is a given and everyone knows that (with the possible exception of you). The issue is pre-HS, where the pathetic holdbacks realize they can't compete at their age level, so they play down a grade. How the parents and the kids are not consumed with embarrassment by this is mystifying. I'd bet you fall into that category, which partially explains your "grow a pair" comment. The irony there is that if you had a pair, you would play against kids your own age. So pathetic.

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