|
Forums20
Topics3,798
Posts399,366
Members2,638
| |
Most Online62,980
Feb 6th, 2020
|
|
 Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Pediatric studies show holdbacks are hurt in the long run-- but that is emotionally and mentally. Science proves those kids get dumbed down and underperform. Basically data shows most kids will adjust to their environment. For kids who skip a grade or are younger, they learn to accelerate and fit in. For holdbacks, they learn to do less well to fit in. BUT that is for academics, social adjustments, etc. For sports, they have physical advantages and kick [lacrosse] on younger kids through high school.
in other words, if you're willing to sacrifice your kid's well being in hopes of him playing lacrosse in college, that path is there.
While I generally agree with this, and would not hold my kid back even though he is, in the highly specialized world of lacrosse, a prime candidate, there are those who would cling to the writings of people such as Malcom Gladwell who observed that there is a disproportionate number of professional hockey players with January birthdays. The logic/reason offered is that those players were always at an advantage (ever so slight) by being the oldest in their division. Recall that hockey has a more structured age-based system with the cut off date of Jan 1. Unless US Lacrosse wrestles back some influence from the clubs, lacrosse will continue to be a sport of holdbacks because that is what works for getting recruited to college College coaches would much rather have an older, more physically mature recruit. Remember, those coaches need to have winning programs or they get fired. And with no financially rewarding professional league, college is the apex of the sport. Sadly the rise of the NLF, and eventual fall of WSYL (yes, I know NLF clubs participate but they are clearly on a path to create their own 'championship'), USLacrosse.org becomes less and less relevant. USLacrosse has one card to play and that is the insurance policy which covers all these clubs and players. When Bollinger Insurance decides that having a 24 month age spread on the same field is not a good idea things will change. Until then, "if you are not playing down, you are playing up" Totally agree about the USL and the insurance card - they should play that card.
|
Like
 Reply
 Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Pediatric studies show holdbacks are hurt in the long run-- but that is emotionally and mentally. Science proves those kids get dumbed down and underperform. Basically data shows most kids will adjust to their environment. For kids who skip a grade or are younger, they learn to accelerate and fit in. For holdbacks, they learn to do less well to fit in. BUT that is for academics, social adjustments, etc. For sports, they have physical advantages and kick [lacrosse] on younger kids through high school.
in other words, if you're willing to sacrifice your kid's well being in hopes of him playing lacrosse in college, that path is there.
While I generally agree with this, and would not hold my kid back even though he is, in the highly specialized world of lacrosse, a prime candidate, there are those who would cling to the writings of people such as Malcom Gladwell who observed that there is a disproportionate number of professional hockey players with January birthdays. The logic/reason offered is that those players were always at an advantage (ever so slight) by being the oldest in their division. Recall that hockey has a more structured age-based system with the cut off date of Jan 1. Unless US Lacrosse wrestles back some influence from the clubs, lacrosse will continue to be a sport of holdbacks because that is what works for getting recruited to college College coaches would much rather have an older, more physically mature recruit. Remember, those coaches need to have winning programs or they get fired. And with no financially rewarding professional league, college is the apex of the sport. Sadly the rise of the NLF, and eventual fall of WSYL (yes, I know NLF clubs participate but they are clearly on a path to create their own 'championship'), USLacrosse.org becomes less and less relevant. USLacrosse has one card to play and that is the insurance policy which covers all these clubs and players. When Bollinger Insurance decides that having a 24 month age spread on the same field is not a good idea things will change. Until then, "if you are not playing down, you are playing up" Your second paragraph represents a common misconception in the holdback/college discussion. Yes, it is true that college coaches want older, more physically mature players. Players that are 20-24, not 18-22. And since there is not a financially rewarding league, they need not worry about the older player leaving early. However, the colleges can still have their older players even if the kids play on age at the youth level. Let the PA, MD, and MA players holdback, enter HS at 15-16, and enter college at 19-20. If this is what the parents want, and what the college coaches want, then so be it. But at the youth level, everyone should be on age. Their is nothing wrong with a 13 year old 7th grader playing against a 13 year old 6th grader, or a 15 year old 9th grader playing against a 15 year old 7th grader. The misconception is that the entire holdback infrastructure requires the kids to play on grade as youth players. It does not. A public school kid in suburban NY can be born on September 30, 2003 and be in 9th grade. A kid from MD can be born on that same day and be in 7th grade. So what. But they should be competing against each other on the travel circuit. The MD kid should not be playing against kids born in 2005. Hockey, which uses birth year, has a solution for the exceptional teenagers - the kids who project to be D1/professional. Such kids can, at age 16, leave the youth system (called minor in Canada) and enter junior hockey. At junior hockey, age no longer matters. 16 year olds play against 20 year olds, ect. For those who are a notch down (still very good players) and then some, they can stay in the youth system through 18U. Prior to 16, everyone plays on age. College D1 hockey relies a lot on older, more mature, prep school and junior players. Similar mindset to lacrosse. Only difference is that the best of the best of the best (think Jack Eichel) might be one and done to the NHL, whereas in lacrosse that doesn't happen because their is no money at the pro level. College hockey, and the prep school/junior system, do just fine with age-based youth play. College lacrosse would do fine also.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Sounds like you are talking about doing a 'post graduate' year rather than 'hold back'. I hope the new recruiting regulation will indeed delay those 're-class' situations into later years and away from the youth (pre-HS) game.
I think we both agree that re-classing should not be acceptable until after they kids are in HS at a minimum and likely not until after they are 16.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Pediatric studies show holdbacks are hurt in the long run-- but that is emotionally and mentally. Science proves those kids get dumbed down and underperform. Basically data shows most kids will adjust to their environment. For kids who skip a grade or are younger, they learn to accelerate and fit in. For holdbacks, they learn to do less well to fit in. BUT that is for academics, social adjustments, etc. For sports, they have physical advantages and kick [lacrosse] on younger kids through high school.
in other words, if you're willing to sacrifice your kid's well being in hopes of him playing lacrosse in college, that path is there.
While I generally agree with this, and would not hold my kid back even though he is, in the highly specialized world of lacrosse, a prime candidate, there are those who would cling to the writings of people such as Malcom Gladwell who observed that there is a disproportionate number of professional hockey players with January birthdays. The logic/reason offered is that those players were always at an advantage (ever so slight) by being the oldest in their division. Recall that hockey has a more structured age-based system with the cut off date of Jan 1. Unless US Lacrosse wrestles back some influence from the clubs, lacrosse will continue to be a sport of holdbacks because that is what works for getting recruited to college College coaches would much rather have an older, more physically mature recruit. Remember, those coaches need to have winning programs or they get fired. And with no financially rewarding professional league, college is the apex of the sport. Sadly the rise of the NLF, and eventual fall of WSYL (yes, I know NLF clubs participate but they are clearly on a path to create their own 'championship'), USLacrosse.org becomes less and less relevant. USLacrosse has one card to play and that is the insurance policy which covers all these clubs and players. When Bollinger Insurance decides that having a 24 month age spread on the same field is not a good idea things will change. Until then, "if you are not playing down, you are playing up" Your second paragraph represents a common misconception in the holdback/college discussion. Yes, it is true that college coaches want older, more physically mature players. Players that are 20-24, not 18-22. And since there is not a financially rewarding league, they need not worry about the older player leaving early. However, the colleges can still have their older players even if the kids play on age at the youth level. Let the PA, MD, and MA players holdback, enter HS at 15-16, and enter college at 19-20. If this is what the parents want, and what the college coaches want, then so be it. But at the youth level, everyone should be on age. Their is nothing wrong with a 13 year old 7th grader playing against a 13 year old 6th grader, or a 15 year old 9th grader playing against a 15 year old 7th grader. The misconception is that the entire holdback infrastructure requires the kids to play on grade as youth players. It does not. A public school kid in suburban NY can be born on September 30, 2003 and be in 9th grade. A kid from MD can be born on that same day and be in 7th grade. So what. But they should be competing against each other on the travel circuit. The MD kid should not be playing against kids born in 2005. Hockey, which uses birth year, has a solution for the exceptional teenagers - the kids who project to be D1/professional. Such kids can, at age 16, leave the youth system (called minor in Canada) and enter junior hockey. At junior hockey, age no longer matters. 16 year olds play against 20 year olds, ect. For those who are a notch down (still very good players) and then some, they can stay in the youth system through 18U. Prior to 16, everyone plays on age. College D1 hockey relies a lot on older, more mature, prep school and junior players. Similar mindset to lacrosse. Only difference is that the best of the best of the best (think Jack Eichel) might be one and done to the NHL, whereas in lacrosse that doesn't happen because their is no money at the pro level. College hockey, and the prep school/junior system, do just fine with age-based youth play. College lacrosse would do fine also. I am a big believer that lacrosse should use hockey as a model - I wouldn't follow everything they did, particularly not the exclusivity to a club a player has to commit to and vice versa. But they learned the hard way, and made the changes to address a lot of the same issues. Meanwhile, you will get a ton a people (especillay here on BOTC!) who somehow think lacrosse is different than other sports and it won't and/or doesn't have to adapt to address blatantly obvious issues.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Sounds like you are talking about doing a 'post graduate' year rather than 'hold back'. I hope the new recruiting regulation will indeed delay those 're-class' situations into later years and away from the youth (pre-HS) game.
I think we both agree that re-classing should not be acceptable until after they kids are in HS at a minimum and likely not until after they are 16. I don't agree. I think a kid should be able to re-class whenever he wants. Be a 13 year old in kindergarten for all I care. I just think youth lacrosse should be organized by age, not grade. It should not matter what grade or kid is in at school, or even if he goes to school at all. 2005 birth years play against 2005 birth years; 2004 birth years vs 2004 birth years, and so on (or Sept 1 2005- August 31, 2006, ect). Kids can repeat 8th grade 10 times. So what.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Sounds like you are talking about doing a 'post graduate' year rather than 'hold back'. I hope the new recruiting regulation will indeed delay those 're-class' situations into later years and away from the youth (pre-HS) game.
I think we both agree that re-classing should not be acceptable until after they kids are in HS at a minimum and likely not until after they are 16. I don't agree. I think a kid should be able to re-class whenever he wants. Be a 13 year old in kindergarten for all I care. I just think youth lacrosse should be organized by age, not grade. It should not matter what grade or kid is in at school, or even if he goes to school at all. 2005 birth years play against 2005 birth years; 2004 birth years vs 2004 birth years, and so on (or Sept 1 2005- August 31, 2006, ect). Kids can repeat 8th grade 10 times. So what. I think he meant reclassing within the confines of sports only. There will always be kids in grades outside the 'norm' for their age due to starting late and/or repeating a grade for academic and/or social developmental deficiency.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anyone know what Express north is doing for 2033 U-13 Tran? Says Brameier isncoach but he coaches Westport team already? What happened to his program, the CT Chargers? Did the district finally crack down?
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
What do you mean by the district crack down?
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
No crackdown! Chargers were sold/merged with LI Express North and Brameier is head coach of 2023 out of Westport. Katonah still stronger squad but IMO that will change if Brameier stays with Express as FairfieldWestchester county players will migrate to Express North Westport.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 43
Back of THE CAGE
|
Back of THE CAGE
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 43 |
No crackdown! Chargers were sold/merged with LI Express North and Brameier is head coach of 2023 out of Westport. Katonah still stronger squad but IMO that will change if Brameier stays with Express as FairfieldWestchester county players will migrate to Express North Westport. Chargers was not sold. They folded due to internal issues between the 2 owners but you are right, Brameir's team will eventually be better bc he is a great coach and will pull kids from his HS (Darien)
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
No crackdown! Chargers were sold/merged with LI Express North and Brameier is head coach of 2023 out of Westport. Katonah still stronger squad but IMO that will change if Brameier stays with Express as FairfieldWestchester county players will migrate to Express North Westport. Could not disagree more - Chargers has been in decline for years...and Coach B has lost plenty of players to Eclipse and rival NC coaching staff. They dont play top events vs top teams any longer. The debate isnt Katonah v Westport....its whether B can keep those kids from Primetime and Eclipse.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
What do you mean by the district crack down? Did they legislate restrictions on the number of Darien kids in the program. Thereby causing it to collapse.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
What do you mean by the district crack down? Did they legislate restrictions on the number of Darien kids in the program. Thereby causing it to collapse. Is that the same for Eclipse? Because it doesn’t seem that be affecting that program.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Just making conversation: 2023 top area teams:
1.Primetime
2.Eclipse
3.Express North(Katonah/Westport)
4.Preds
5.2-Way
6.TS91
7.Rhino(CT)
I'm sure I'm missing some solid teams just getting the ball rolling...
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Just making conversation: 2023 top area teams:
1.Primetime
2.Eclipse
3.Express North(Katonah/Westport)
4.Preds
5.2-Way
6.TS91
7.Rhino(CT)
I'm sure I'm missing some solid teams just getting the ball rolling...
Primetime?? Your talking 2023 not 2022 correct?
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Yep. Like I said just curious what others think.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Seems reasonable based on results from last year. Unclear yet how much teams have changed.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Curious to see how Eclipse and Express North fair.
Both absorbed ex Chargers while adding to A teams.
Think the dilution of the talent pool helps PT.
Lower programs inching towards the middle
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
What do you mean by the district crack down? Did they legislate restrictions on the number of Darien kids in the program. Thereby causing it to collapse. The CIAC which governs high school sports in CT restricted the number of players from a coaches district to play in their for profit programs. It was the direct cause of the Chargers demise and perhaps Superstars.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
When were CIAC restrictions put in place
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Looks like Schreiber 24 team and 23 team are pretty awful. So much for Schreiber being a great judge of talent
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
When were CIAC restrictions put in place More to the point, when were they enforced?
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Wow - so, if I am reading this right, essentially a school coach cannot really coach a club team where he would have student athletes from his school on the team? Thus, if a coach wants to coach club, he has to go to a different geographic region in order to make sure this isn't likely to happen?
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Westchester could use rules similar to CIAC.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Just making conversation: 2023 top area teams:
1.Primetime
2.Eclipse
3.Express North(Katonah/Westport)
4.Preds
5.2-Way
6.TS91
7.Rhino(CT)
I'm sure I'm missing some solid teams just getting the ball rolling...
Top teams #1 and #2 seem about right. Express North teams got trounced on LI in Halloween tourney. A poll would drop them below Preds and 2Way after those performances. New teams always take a while to figure it out. Rhino far better than TS91. Praying these teams go to Bulldog Bash to finally play one another.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Just making conversation: 2023 top area teams:
1.Primetime
2.Eclipse
3.Express North(Katonah/Westport)
4.Preds
5.2-Way
6.TS91
7.Rhino(CT)
I'm sure I'm missing some solid teams just getting the ball rolling...
Top teams #1 and #2 seem about right. Express North teams got trounced on LI in Halloween tourney. A poll would drop them below Preds and 2Way after those performances. New teams always take a while to figure it out. Rhino far better than TS91. Praying these teams go to Bulldog Bash to finally play one another. Express north 24 and 23 are horrible.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Keep telling yourself that.... The 2024's played The Longboard's and The Kingsmen and held their own. Both teams were loaded with top players from both Taz and Pack. Saying they are horrible when you do not have a clue shows how ignorant and bitter you are. We all know your boy got cut......
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Keep telling yourself that.... The 2024's played The Longboard's and The Kingsmen and held their own. Both teams were loaded with top players from both Taz and Pack. Saying they are horrible when you do not have a clue shows how ignorant and bitter you are. We all know your boy got cut...... That's the thing. You play against teams made up of 1/2 good players and half not and you still can't win. You guys stink, your coach is a walking heart attack and a poor judge of talent. Your attack is weak . And your middies are slow.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Westchester could use rules similar to CIAC. Why do you post that claim without identifying where this restriction is most needed? Many districts have self policed, but not all.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Just making conversation: 2023 top area teams:
1.Primetime
2.Eclipse
3.Express North(Katonah/Westport)
4.Preds
5.2-Way
6.TS91
7.Rhino(CT)
I'm sure I'm missing some solid teams just getting the ball rolling...
Top teams #1 and #2 seem about right. Express North teams got trounced on LI in Halloween tourney. A poll would drop them below Preds and 2Way after those performances. New teams always take a while to figure it out. Rhino far better than TS91. Praying these teams go to Bulldog Bash to finally play one another. Just making conversation: 2023 top area teams:
1.Primetime
2.Eclipse
3.Express North(Katonah/Westport)
4.Preds
5.2-Way
6.TS91
7.Rhino(CT)
I'm sure I'm missing some solid teams just getting the ball rolling...
Top teams #1 and #2 seem about right. Express North teams got trounced on LI in Halloween tourney. A poll would drop them below Preds and 2Way after those performances. New teams always take a while to figure it out. Rhino far better than TS91. Praying these teams go to Bulldog Bash to finally play one another. 2-Way, TS91, and Preds are going to Yale for the fall classic in November. Not sure about the other teams. At the end of the day, though, the LI teams are the real teams to beat in the area. To start some BS rivalry and measure our programs against each other is pointless and keep us in the B league.... our teams need to work on improving to beat the top LI teams.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Any town teams doing Gobbler games this year?
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Any LI teams coming to the Yale Bulldog Fall Classic, next month?
How about Express North
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1
Back of THE CAGE
|
|
Back of THE CAGE
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1 |
Express North 2021 is not playing in the Yale Bulldog Fall Classic. I do not believe the other grades are playing in it either.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Express North will be in Long Island at Blatant
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
What are town varsity teams doing over the winter? I know some play in the Chelsea Pier league but there must be other options.
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Can anyone tell me about the 2way 2024 team? Competitive?
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Can anyone tell me about the 2way 2024 team? Competitive? I heard they are good and I think Bobby Lutz is the coach which is awesome!!
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Westchester Lacrosse
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anyone going to the Prime Time College Experience Showcase coming up?
|
|
Like
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Moderated by A1Laxer, Abclax123, America's Game, Annoy., Anonymous 1, baldbear, Bearded_Kaos, BiggLax, BOTC_EVENTS, botc_ne, clax422, CP@BOTC, cp_botc, Gremelin, HammerOfJustice, hatimd80, JimSection1, Ladylaxer2609, lax516, Laxers412, LaxMomma, Liam Kassl, LILax15, MomOf6, Team BOTC, The Hop, TheBackOfTheCage, Thirdy@BOTC, TM@BOTC |
|
