BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums MID-ATLANTIC LACROSSE MARYLAND FORUM Boys 2034 Grads - Mid-Atlantic Region

This is to talk about 2034 grads playing in the HoCo league, Tourneys, and school teams

2024 Hoco League Lineup

2034s

Annapolis Hawks
Bethesda Blue
Blue Heron
Clippers Blue
Crabs
Madlax Capital
Next Level
True Baltimore
True Chesapeake

Posting in the young groups: At the youngest of ages in Hoco in 2024, which teams are drawing the most talent? What is talent? Stickwork, running, size, aggression, Lax IQ? At this, big boys sometimes just run through the D and team matters less. Good teams force the passing over goals and it eventually pays off when they get older as boys can sling the ball around and score as a team.

Here's my indirect answers:
1) The best 10year olds are the fastest kids (which at this age could just be stride length/height) who are coordinated enough to catch on the move. Hawks, for example, puts enormous value on getting the fastest kids, and knowing they can train them to be competent lax players. Crabs tend to focus on the tallest kids. Different take on the same model.

2) The kids viewed as "elite" in 8th grade are an unknown/unpredictable group of AA, AAA and elite 4th graders who hit puberty first. By 11th grade, the deck has been totally reshuffled again. Very few "standout" 4th graders will be standout 11th graders. And of course about 70% of kids who play sports in 4th grade, no longer even play (any) sports by the end of 9th grade.

HoCo Championship game being replayed because Madlax used an ineligible player. Never too young for Cabell to start his cheating ways!! 15 years and counting….

Actually, the child has a qualifying disability under ADA and HOCO, governed by Howard County Parks and Rec, a government agency, refuses accommodations for children with disabilities. The parents had no choice but to choose between not breaking their kids heart and placing them with their graduating class or pulling them off their team. It should be noted the USA Lacrosse guidelines are simply guidelines and accommodations for children with disabilities should be met. It’s a county program. The kid is the smallest on the team and has qualifying disabilites. Shame on HOCO for denying accommodations.

Have no clue about this situation, but does sound like the one off where you let an older player play down. Of course on cue, many moany holdback parents will want the same thing for junior without any issue except he cant compete against players his own age.

Yeah as a coach, I'm calling BS on this, even though it's always fun to drag ineffective government. It's a county program, yes, and it also happens to be the far-and-way best boys lacrosse league in the entire United States, and Howard County Parks is a nationally recognized agency for the quality and quantity of public access (and ADA inclusive) work they do. I am 100% confident in the 10+ years of the league, they have made, and continue to make, ADA accommodations. As they should!

But an "ADA accommodation" is not "BOOM here's a crisis happening in real time, you must be fair, make the right decision right now!" It's a well-papered process where nobody is entitled to immediate relief, and I think you know that, and it seems like you don't want others to know that. So let's retrace steps.

90% of the problem: Your son's club submitted a roster to HoCo about 5 months ago. Clearly the club understands what the situation with this player is, and had a major responsibility, before the league play began TWO MONTHS AGO to work with HoCo to make proper accommodations. This would have resulted in a paper trail that would have avoided the crisis situation at the championship game. However your son's club did not do this, otherwise a different outcome would have occurred.

Very much trying to be kind to the parents here - it is obvious that the letter of the regulations (the adoption of USL age standards makes it a league rule, not a recommendation), their son was ineligible. Either they assumed that someone else would rectify this with the league (which, I doubt any parent of a differently abled kid is that naive), or someone at their son's club assured them it would be handled....and I'm telling you, clearly it was not handled. Those people who billed you $3K are who you should be upset with here.

I'm 99.9% sure that if the lax club, or this player's parents had gotten on the horn with Ricky DuBois in February, this crisis would have never happened. And if the parents didn't know the name "Ricky DuBois" or his job title, before championship weekend this spring, there's a bunch of balls that got dropped. Seriously how do you end up on championship day with a clearly (by the letter of the rules) ineligible player, and nobody has any kind of paperwork or PDF on their phone verifying it was handled with HoCo, and the age requirement was waived for this extremely valid case? Seriously how did the adults in charge of this young man's sports play let that happen.

Please understand: To parents who have been around club sports awhile, while this sounds like a very legit situation, it sounds like so many other very non-legit situations of roster violations.

if you spend some time in the 2026-2029 message threads on BOTC, you will see example after example of DMV's slimiest and creepiest club coaches "accidentally" getting busted for showing up with as many as 9 ineligible players at a Hoco game, and as many as 5 at a Hoco playoff game, and what is their sob story in 100% of cases?

We tried to call HoCo, shucks, there is no record of those calls on our phones.
They didn't accommodate us and it was unfair.
We are sure we submitted some paperwork but no we don't have a sent email, a PDF, or a print out of it to show anybody. Is that OK?
We emailed HoCo but I must have deleted my sent files.
HoCo says they never talked to us but just because there's no written or digital evidence, they are lying and unfair.
They left us no choice.
The boys are heartbroken (they love this one the most, like, the local NXT B-team players heart broken because they couldn't ride the bench so 6 players flown in from Texas this morning could play, who nobody even tried to get placed on the roster).

And the other classic..........Shame on Hoco for not following their own rules.

How many years do we have to hear the same nonsense from the same coaches and club directors. And yes even in this case, it's one of the perennial "misunderstood" violators of Hoco club roster rules, so excuse the cynicism of others on this board.

There is a paper trail and HOCO (Ricky Dubois) denied accommodations to numerous parents before the start of the season. Not just one. Those parents are talking. In this case the parent had to choose between the kids safety and HOCO. Again the kid was the smallest kid out there. An opposing parent went through the roster and then searched each parents social media for birthday posts and sent the kids birthday pictures to the league. Talk about psychotic. We are talking about second graders with disabilities being denied accommodations. This isn’t a high school basketball team, with rigged birth certificates. A counties lacrosse league rules do not rise above ADA.

You sound angry and biased. You’re taking this youth league way too seriously. We are talking about 8-9 year old children one WITH A QUALIFYING DISABILITY. You’re losing sight of the purpose of youth sports. It’s not your game old man. It’s the children’s.

Can someone define what a “qualifying disability” is? Is that a general ADA term? Is it something that shows up in HoCo’s age rules and roster regulations? If the former, is the argument that because he has a disability that’s recognized by the ADA then Madlax should automatically be exempt from the rules when it comes to his age and roster spot?

I guess I didn't expect "I'M NOT ANGRY!!!! YOU'RE ANGRY!!!!!!" as a retort, but here we are.

You're directly accusing a government agency of a substantive violation of federal law, and suggesting there are additional "bad acts" to support a larger class action lawsuit. I'm not arguing any of that is untrue. But, Some follow up thoughts:

1) If it were my family, I'd have already retained counsel. I assume you have (otherwise it's....maybe...perhaps...the tiniest bit overblown).
2) If I had hired counsel (as most of us have), I am confident that in our debrief, some standard instructions from counsel to client would include "please use discretion in your use of social media." These are not posts "of discretion" which again makes me question how much of this is anger vs how much of it is attempting some type of curative response from HoCo.
3) Based on these posts which 100% have already been screen-shotted by Senor Ricky, you'd better hope that the County wants to settle, or that you can obtain a verdict on their liability. Otherwise, I am sure those government lawyers will just drag you through court and court expenses for years to come based on the claims in these posts.

Aside from the legal peril you seem to have launched yourself into with these posts, let me offer some fatherly advice, and it's OK if you don't want it, or you think I'm "angry" or an "old man" lololololol.........................Club sports are a money generator, that is their primary purpose...you will not ever see a club team that takes a financial loss in more than 1 consecutive year. If you believe the sales pitches of the clubs, that's on you. In our region there are nearly limitless opportunities to play lacrosse at some level from age 6 to age 76. It's a beautiful thing that even "angry old guys" like me can play the game. It could easily be your son in Mens League one day. Why not?

However..........every year, hundreds of boys in our area are told in coaches' offices that due to something beyond their control (particularly, delayed onset of puberty, height, and speed/ natural muscle development), they will not be allowed to continue playing "with their friends." That's just a thing that many of us have had to walk our kids through. "My friends made it on that team but I got cut, they said they were looking for bigger players at my position." It's just a thing, man, and obviously you have a whole lot of chaos going on, but you'll have to add this reality to the list as well. Definitely sorry if this is the first place you've heard it.

Good luck litigating against Howard County Parks.

This reads like an intimidation post. Wonder why?

Folks, this is a complete spin job by Madlax and their director/cosches. They cheated and got caught. Period. They encouraged the parents (along with others) to doctor birth certificates. Why would anyone be surprised by this coming from Madlax

If you define "intimidation" as:
1) friendly advice that nobody should accuse government agencies and their employees of crimes on social media, because that's adult courtroom stuff;

2) friendly advice that for-profit lacrosse clubs (ML ***chief among them****) are not a family friend or social support network, they are a service you purchase 1-year contracts from;

3) friendly advice, and empathy, that the DMV upper echelon lacrosse world is full of inequities based on how young men are genetically put together (height, stride length, age of puberty, sight ability and hand-eye coordination being the biggest ones), and as a parent of a 2034 you have that entire minefield ahead of you, with or without an ADA diagnosis;

Yes if you qualify any of those as intimidation, then you are probably a very soft person having a tough time in a very hard world, one that I guarantee you is only going to grow more tough and chaotic in the coming 10-20 years. I'm talking world economic patterns, not even domestic politics.

It really stinks that competitive sports opportunities are not fair. But they are not. Ask the 6'4" LSM from Boys Latin, who started playing for Kelly Post at age 5, and who was "urged" by BL coaches to focus on his other sports, rather than ride the bench on Varsity Lax or even possibly be cut. Oh yeah...... his name was Michael Phelps.

Copied below, from ada.gov. #1 it's important to note that there is a formal process for requesting accommodations. Accusing (and naming) government employees of flagrantly violating that process is a big deal, as it would be a federal crime if true and provable. If not true and provable, yeah some would say you've created some liability for defamation. I am still unconvinced that this process was followed in this case, but honestly, I have no detailed info to know. I do know that Ricky DB is a relatively honest guy, but I also know that my son's team asked for accommodations (rescheduled playoff game) one year, as half of the team was in standardized testing on a playoff date, and Ricky denied the accommodation. Which was the end of our (undefeated) season and I definitely did not appreciate it. But it wasn't like he was some kind of evil wizard up in a castle trying to ruin the boys' lives.

#2 There is a relatively recent and growing trend of parents showing up to schools, sports teams, playgrounds, etc and demanding *full* accommodations out of the blue, without following any kind of process. Not speculating that this is the case here, but rest assured the Hoco Rec and Parks deals with this trend on a weekly basis. Which probably makes their approach to parents pretty gruff/cynical. And in this case, yeah, maybe they made an awful call.

#3 if you take a look at the ADA list below, you see why a league *might* be skeptical, and I understand how that would feel cruel to the parents of the kid involved. The older HoCo age groups have been plagued with single and double holdbacks for a decade. There were 16 year old 8th graders playing this spring. And guess what, most of them have a "qualifying diagnosis" as listed below (ADHD or autism-spectrum...intellectual disability), and I'm sure HoCo has been through this before, with both very valid and very not valid cases.

Copied, without edit:

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) defines a disability as a physical or mental impairment that significantly limits one or more major life activities. The ADA covers many disabilities, including:
Cancer
Diabetes
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
HIV
Autism
Cerebral palsy
Deafness or hearing loss
Blindness or low vision
Epilepsy
Mobility disabilities, such as those requiring a wheelchair, walker, or cane
Intellectual disabilities
Major depressive disorder
Traumatic brain injury

Woah. So the story as you tell it is:

1) you requested a roster waiver - via ADA - to place your 2033 son on a 2034 team, before the season.
2) It was denied by HCRP at the beginning of the season.
3) You played your kid on the 2034 team ANYWAY knowing that the request had been denied. Which means every game your son played, should be a forfeit by Madlax, even though that rule may be unfair.
4) You got caught breaking the rules, however unfair the rules are.
5) It's HCRP's fault that you broke HCRP's rules, because the rules are unfair.

I'd follow the advice others have given (go dark on social and file your lawsuit), but I do have one other question:

Who told you to take this course of action, specifically Step #3? Did someone at Madlax tell you it would be OK, despite the denial from the league? Or was it sua sponte on your part.

I also have an "ADA listed illness" (maybe 2 or 3, depending on where the needle lands) and MY advice would be, you and your son have more than enough battles ahead of you. Don't create ones that are unnecessary. And don't take aggressive advice from people who will not actually be there when the S hits the fan. I've known so many young professionals who have lost jobs this way - they take awful advice/mentoring from a senior manager, and when the situation explodes, the manager is allowed/forced to retire with pension, while all the (very confused due to unfairness) young people just get fired for their conduct.

Very low on the list of people I'd take aggressive advice from, are for-profit youth lacrosse club directors. For what that's worth. They are very confident gambling with other peoples' money. Rarely their own.

Would it be fair to ask if the child/parents had other options and could have played on a less competitive team in his own age group? I missed where it was explained why they wanted him playing with younger kids.

Many of the points above are accurate but I don’t think it even requires that much thought. How is a “reasonable accommodation” under law allowing an older kid to play against younger kids? Make sure you’re represented on a contingency fee basis. (The 2034 thread has already turned from a lacrosse to a law forum!) Please post the federal district court decision dismissing this claim with prejudice when it is published.

New to the thread. here are my thoughts:

1. I have never heard of a player in any league allowed to play down in age because of ADHD. My son is a 2028 who has ADHD up the wazoo, who takes medication every day, and it never occurred to me that all these years he could have been an 2029.

2. if a player is playing down and has HoCo's permission to do so, there would be rock solid paperwork showing that it is approved, and the players' parents and coaches would carry it at all times and be ready to show it. without that, this is just another MadLax cheater.

3. I don't buy the part about "breaking the boys heart" by taking him off the team - this is second grade for Pete's sake; there are plenty of options for teams he could join without cheating.

4. whenever there is one illegal player on a roster, you can practically guarantee there are more.

5. the people who really get screwed are the other kids on the team, who had no idea that their little tiny teammate was too old for the team. imagine being the parents of those kids and explaining it to them.

THat's what you get for joining MadLax, the most corrupt program ever.

not trying to be dismissive of a potential real kid with needs but the reasoning given was the usual holdback stuff of "he just wants to play with his friends, dont break his heart."

Sorry, there is no "accommodation" necessary to play professional lacrosse and none to play elite lacrosse while jeopardizing and hurting the game for other kids. If unable to find a B or A team properly on age, then discuss a REASONABLE accommodation, the actual wording.

As others said this does not require much thought. If this is a real scenario and not a Red Maddux I mean Red Herring meant to distract from roster cheating that was exposed, you don't have to look much farther than the fact that the very same club has a 2033 B team that plays the lowest level club competition in that age group. Pretty likely that that's where this player should have been slotted by parents and club. It maybe indicates that the parent decision wasn't solely "play with friends vs. don't play with friends," it was - perhaps - also "but we want him to play on an elite team." Which as others have said, happens to be the same logic of every reclass/holdback parent.

Nobody has a divine right to enter club lacrosse in 2nd or 3rd grade. My older son (plays at an MIAA-A school) would have lost nothing by starting club ball in 5th instead of 3rd. And we would have saved $6K in club dues.

Bravo to that Mom. So many age cheaters in HOCO. People are tired of it. DMV is littered with them.

Much ado about nothing. Just another age-cheater who was caught, and now backpedaling.
I think the lawsuit that is most likely winnable here is the one of defamation of a gov't employee.

Yeah I thought that was quite bold (and the biggest tell that this was overblown). Between his employer and whatever employee union he's in, Ricky DB has free legal representation for as long as he wants 😆

This a 2nd grade lacrosse thread? We’re talking lawyers and ADA (lolwut?) claims for reclass kids? Is everyone ok in here?

I was watching a 2028 game this past weekend and turned at half to see a 2034 game going on. Parents hollering from the sidelines at their kids and the refs. It was hilarious yet disturbing. I remember my 28 when he was that age, so much has changed, and the kids that were superstars in 2nd grade are rarely the same 6 years later. Enjoy them while they’re young, it goes fast.

I was watching a 2028 game this past weekend and turned at half to see a 2034 game going on. Parents hollering from the sidelines at their kids and the refs. It was hilarious yet disturbing. I remember my 28 when he was that age, so much has changed, and the kids that were superstars in 2nd grade are rarely the same 6 years later. Enjoy them while they’re young, it goes fast.

GET A LIFE!!!!!!! Do you have ANY idea how many ADHD kids pay sports?!! You want an accommodation for ADHD??!! This is the first and only time I have ever heard a parent bash because you don't get to cheat and play down because of an attention defecit disorder. This is INSANE. I don't care how little the kid is, pick a different sport then!!! To accuse ANYONE the way you are is comical over an ADHD diagnosis. Seriously, get a life.

Where are you reading the holdback is for ADHD?

Sooooo, Johnny over there has some qualifying disabilities but is 4 times the size of the kids Should he get a pas and break arms and collar bones all season of on age kids The problem is the sham club lacrosse has created and these parents who didn't have a day will look for any advantage I agree some accommodations should be made but you know there's a dad with a kid well older and huge licking his chops to watch him dominate smaller competition It's a shame what has been created.

Hiring a lawyer so that a 9 year old can compete with 8 year olds is peak Madlax behavior

Netflix is coming out with a series on lacrosse and HOCO and all the intrigue that goes with it. Should be a great series and give Friday Night Lights a run for who has more deranged parents and coaches, lacrosse or football.

Who was that 2034 Recon team at Hogan Hershey? LI team? They looked good, beating True Baltimore and Madlax Capital.

This thread should have started and ended with that comment. Chefs kiss.

Kid is now on the appropriate age group B team.

Lacrosse Housewives of HoCo?

Lacrosse Housewives of HoCo?

While HOCO has stroked a lot of egos in the lacrosse world, it is one of the worst examples how to make lacrosse what it is today. A holdback league for MIAA and any others that want to play down.

It was the driver of Grade Base lacrosse for one of directors sons years ago. Every HOCO league is age based except Lacrosse . Scummy bunch of people and director is gone, but the legacy continues.

HoCo switched to the 15 month window supported by US lacrosse last year.

Except when they get to 8th grade. Then it goes back to a 2 year window! No joke! Hahaha

Both are run by Baltimorons who have the MIAA holdback mentality.

Maybe that was per of transitioning to age based? You can see the age guidelines here:

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/8983-3156974/GHCLC_Spring_2025_Guidelines.pdf

There aren’t any exceptions for any of the grades that I see.

Not true. 2029 was extended by a year for upcoming season, likely to appease the MIAA crowd

Last year, to be eligible to play in HOCO 7th grade (2029 class year), your birthdate could be no earlier than June 1, 2010. That was the 15 month window. Now, to be eligible to play HOCO 8th grade (2029 class years, your birthdate could be no earlier than June 1, 2009. In other words, they add an entire year to the 2029s.

The rumor is that Cabell wanted the option of pushing his 2028 son down into the 29 year and pushed HOCO on this because his son isn't good enough at the 28 level. Whether this is true or not I have no idea but it sounds like something he would do.

I dislike CM too, but that’s silly. It’s because a substantial percentage of kids reclass at that point and it would be disruptive to teams (particularly at the elite level) if 30 percent or more of their roster is ineligible.

You want to reclass as you transition to private… there’s nothing in place to stop that now, but in my opinion you should only get to play grade 8 hoco once not twice. It’s ridiculous and disruption be damned.

Why wasn’t the kid on the right team in the first place with the club?

When your 2034 is in 8th grade he will be playing against boys born after June 1, 2014 and not the June 1, 2015 date that is common for this age group. So your 8th grader born on August 31, 2016 might be playing against a kid born on June 1, 2014. That is 2 years and almost 3 month difference. SMH...great job lacrosse and HOCO

Actually, it makes sense. Kids who are held back for purposes other than athletic advantage would not be able to play lax for a year and would essentially be required to sit out bc they can’t play HS either. That’s exclusion. Sounds like a double struggle for some kids and even though you’re anonymous, whiney Meanywants your way, this is about the kids. After 8th grade year your kids going to be playing with men anyway and you’re going to have to fully cut the umbilical cord. What you should consider the most is the message you’re sending your kid and the weakness you’re ingraining in him. Those big boys can sniff that out in the locker room. You think I’m wrong? Let him find out the hard way.

Dude..stop screaming at the wall. I have been through this rodeo a few times and your arguments are all played out. Don't get your panties in a bunch everytime someone simply states the facts. Take a seat on the bench...your holdback will be right next to you after all the young kids surpass him in HS.

They wouldn't have to sit out a year under an age model. If you go by age, it makes the most sense. The club team continues into that u14 and u15, u16 groupings.
Soccer does it. US Lacrosse world games does it. You can have 8th and 9th graders on the same year. But the age keeps the age gap smaller.
It's also helps with true evaluation of talent as opposed to old kids just dominating younger kids.

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LOL you're not wrong, a number of the 2028s played their 2nd 8th grade Hoco season this year. And a number of "2029s" (some turning 15 this fall...7th grade) will be playing their second 8th grade season this year. Madlax, Crabs, FCA, and Hawks all come to mind.

A intended to be helpful note also - if you have private school admissions folks in your circle, get some data from them when you see them. I highly recommend that anybody who's got their kid in a public or a private "non feeder" school to take a look at the acceptance rates at the better private schools for 9th grade these days. Get adjusted for the reality of 8th grade applications. I know that club directors are already filling your heads with dreams of "9th grade schollys" (maybe 2 per year per school btw). BUT.

There are a huge number of 2027 and 2028 laxers from "good schools" and "good families" with "good grades" who didn't get into their top 3 or 4 private high schools in MD.......the landscape is changing quickly and become intensely competitive at "most" of the WCAC, IAC, and MIAA top tier schools.

If you're in MoCo or HoCo you may not be seeing this (because by and large the public schools are some of the best in the country) but you'll note that the top 50 public HS in Maryland (almost entirely moco and hoco) include something like 3 (of 35) Balt County schools, 1 (of 30ish) in Baltimore City, 1 (of 18) in AACO, 0 (of 30) in PG County, 1 (of 10?) in Carroll County, and 1 (of 15?) in Harford County. That's an awful lot of male athletes with A's and B's looking for a decent private education. Rough math, probably 20,000 athletes in those "not great schools" counties, with 5,000 of them with good grades and parents willing/able to stroke a check for HS. Another 500 or so are already in feeder private schools. And maybe 100 out of state sports and academic prospects. Not counting public school 8th grade boys from MoCo, Hoco, DC, or Virginia, which, let's just add 1000.

So those roughly 6600 kids will be applying for roughly 800 MIAA-A, about 700 WCAC, and about 500 IAC student spots. Giving the average B student, AA/AAA 2 sport athlete a roughly 30% chance of being admitted to any of these schools for 9th grade.

And from what I'm seeing, it's tightening up even further...