BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) 2020-2021 Women's Division I, II & III College Lacrosse Season

You can not judge DI women’s lacrosse by looking at a teams record, there is simply too much disparity among teams.

You say to look at 2017... OK,

In 2017 Maryland finished the Won The National Championship and obviously finished the year Ranked # 1. Penn State finished the year ranked # 3. Northwestern finished # 13.

Hopkins finished the year 11 - 7 and was not in the final Top 20. 4 of their losses were to Top 4 teams ( 2x to #1 Maryland. 1x to #3 PSU and 1x to #4 Stony Brook) they lost to #12 Penn and also to #13 Northwestern in OT Their sole loss to team not ranked in the Top 20 was to Towson who is listed as “others receiving votes”.

To try and say they were not competitive and arguably top 20 caliber is laughable.

It’s easy to have a good record if you don’t play any top teams...
Swap out the 4 game Hopkins played Vs Top 4 teams and the could have a record of 15 - 3 and probably be ranked in the Top 20.

Can’t judge by a teams record in this sport.

Who said Hopkins was not competitive?? I said they were OK in those rcent years. In 2017 I would expect them to lose to #1, #3, and #4. But, they lost to #12, #13 and a HM. I do not think they beat anyone that year in the Top 20 so as far as I am concerned they were not a Top 20 caliber team that year. They were good but not good enough for Top 20 in 2017.

Like you said we will find out at the end of the year. We know Northwestern should be there...but will anyone else from the Big Ten be there as well. In Men's hoops we found out that one team was strong enough and the others were not. I was not comparing sports rather the Covid schedule strategy of only playing in conference games. Good luck to all Big Ten teams...

Interesting but confusing. Can’t use a teams record to do rankings. So since teams are mostly playing within conference so we should just try to determine which conferences are best and anoint the teams within those conferences as the best and therefore worthy of NCAA bids. Sorry, I am leaning towards Big 10 not being that good. ACC... yes very good conference so Va Tech is in??

So, because they beat each other and some might not have a favorable record you would assume they are not good. I agree with the point that record is not an indication Wins and Losses is not an accurate way to jerks or rank a team. Theoretically a team could be 0 - 10 with all 10 losses to Top 10 teams. Another team could be 10 - 0 with no games played against Top 20 teams.

Since Hopkins has been discussed I looked at their 2018 season:

Hopkins was 10 - 9 Overall.

Beat # 11 Loyola
Lost # 10 Penn by 1 goal
Lost # 22 Georgetown by 1 goal
Lost # 3 Maryland
Lost # 18 Penn State in OT
Lost # 8 Northwestern by 1 goal
Lost # 5 Stony Brook
Lost # 9 Towson by 1 goal
Lost # 3 Maryland
Lost # 6 Navy

10 games Vs Top 20 teams 6 Vs Top 10 and 3 Vs Top 5 teams...

Five 1 goal losses to Top 20 Teams... 3 of those 1 goal losses to Top 10 Teams...

The Big 10 is brutal, not as bad as the ACC but still very competitive.

Do you really think that all of the teams just all of the sudden became non-competitive? More likely that Michigan, Ohio State and Rutgers are stronger than usual.

Look no further than a program like Stony Brook to see the advantage that you get by having a mediocre schedule. They alway have a great record and get ranked overly high in the polls and when the NCAA Tournament rolls around they lose to a team that plays a much more difficult schedule and in some cases has a worse record (I did not check the records off the teams they lost to) The point is a teams record can not be used because the strength of schedule varies greatly from team to team.

No, Virginia Tech has not demonstrated that they are competitive.

Just looking at 2018. Comparing Maryland and Stony Brook schedules:

Maryland played 13 Top 20 Teams.

Stony Brook played 7 Top 20 Teams.

I didn’t bother to look at top 5 or top 10.

Maryland’s schedule was basically twice (if not more) as difficult as Stony Brooks.

Teams that play a difficult schedule should not be compared to teams that do not play a difficult by looking at the teams record.

Valid point for Maryland, however Hopkins has lost to Stony Brook in 2017, 2018, and 2019 the last three full seasons played

But doesn’t Va Tech play in the “most competitive” conference and theoretically play the schedule with the most top 20 teams. Point is your record is your record. Own it. Win your conference and go to NCAA tournament.

Yeah, OK. Get a clue. If Virginia Tech were losing close games or splitting games Vs the Top Teams most would agree that they should be given consideration over teams with better records that play few or no games vs top teams.

Problem is they lost to Daivdson. Jacksonville loss not a bad loss since Jacksonville is currently #14. Also, weak out of conference wins this year. They do not deserve to be in any consideration at this time

Tournament selection should be interesting. Very difficult to judge teams this year. With The Ivy's sitting out and The Big Ten only competing in-conference we are missing a lot of crossover / non conference game with some of the most competitive programs. We are missing about 30 - 35% (6 or 7) teams that finish the season ranked in the Top 20 every year. Those programs traditionally play very competitive out of conference schedules and that helps us gain perspective as to how teams compare to each other.

Below is how many Top 20 teams Ivy and Big had each year.

- 2015

Big - 5
Ivy - 2

- 2016

Big - 4
Ivy - 3

- 2017

Big - 3
Ivy - 3

- 2018

Big - 3 and Hopkins ranked 21
Ivy - 2 and Dartmouth ranked 23

- 2019

Big - 3 and Hopkins ranked 22
Ivy - 3

No reason to think that The Big 10 would not have 3 or 4 Top 20 - 25 Teams this year. From what I have seen the majority of big ten games have been very competitive. In the end we will see teams at .500 or below that are probably Top 20 caliber but will most likely not be ranked. The question is what will the selection committee do with .500 Big Ten teams? I'm guessing they will get in. I believe teams with a below .500 average are not eligible for the Tournament.

I believe the saying is "let sleeping dogs lie"...But I had to bring it back up... 5th year players and Graduate Transfers.... I really don't have a problem with it but I happened to watch the Duke vs North Carolina Men's game and I was blow away when I heard the announcer say that Duke had 15 Graduate Students on the roster... Yes, 15. I had to check and yes he was accurate.... I realize many teams probably have a handful but 15 just seemed a little crazy... one of them might win the Tewaaraton Award if Duke wins the National Championship. Believe it or not some Freshmen actually starting....

Obviously Dad/mom are willing to pay the full freight to let Jr chase a Natty. Just like Syracuse wlax have 10 this year.

What’s makes you think mom or dad are paying a dime ?

As usual on here there is a certain jealousy / bitterness / resentment factor.... If people can afford it good for them, if certain schools can keep or bring in 5th year or grad students, good for them (although 15 seems a bit crazy to me)... One thing I have never understood is why people care how others choose to spend their money.

Has anyone else noticed that every year they take a west coast team and build them up in the rankings when they obviously don’t belong . This year it will be Stanford who literally play no good teams for a whole season . Got to watch their last game , good to see they had starters in up by 13 or so and still had them scoring with under a minute to play . They may not win a game in the ACC or big ten but lets promote them like a top team . Can’t we finally admit that the game has not reached the West Coast yet .

Why attack the west coast? Stanford and USC have had competitive teams, Colorado has been competitive and Arizona State is on the rise... Please tell us how many good teams Florida, Stony Brook, Loyola etc will play this year ? BTW, some on this site actually believe the The Big Ten is weak..
Hunter is innocent and China is a friend to the US.

Bringing SBU into this just shows how you are uninformed . They have played the two best teams in the country and destroyed one of the “best” teams Stanford will play holding them to 3 goals . Again every year they try to promote some over rated west coast team , it was USC for awhile now it’s Stanford’s turn to be over hyped . Stanford would lose to all the teams you mentioned and all the big ten teams .

I mean, someone has to pay for it, no?

The most overrated, overhyped program in the history of women’s lacrosse is Stony Brook. Yes, they played two of the best teams this year and were blown out by both. The play a relatively weak schedule every year and have actually done nothing to justify their lofty rankings. Good program, good players, good coach but overall way overhyped.

And I guess the Pac-12 teams play a tough schedule. Geez. SBU will beat every Pac-12 team and the SBU subs will get playing time in those games.

Cuse/ UNC was a eye opener. Also in the respect to who the real superstars are for UNC are, and more importantly who they aren’t!

Who cares if they can beat PAC 12 teams? As the post said, Stony Brook is the most overrated, overhyped program in the history of women’s lacrosse.

Oh boy......did you not read the starting quote of the thread. I will recap for you since you obviously didnt.....Western teams overhyped....the counter argument...No SBU most over-rated in wlax history....Soooo western teams overhyped vs SBU overhyped.....interesting question.....SBU will easily beat western teams....Therefore it appears the Western teams are most overhyped. Now go and watch some Perry Mason re-runs

You need to get a life . A great team wins convincingly and you feel the need to try and knock down a young women and honestly no one knows who you are speaking about as that whole team played well .

Team Defense / Athleticism on the defense and through the middle of the field / Goalie = National Championship.

Yes, you have to score goals but having a high powered offense will not hep you win if you are lacking in the other areas.

As the sayings go, pitching beats hitting and defense wins championships.

Teams with the athletes and courage to play Man to man should be applauded! Toughest thing to do in women’s lacrosse is be put on an island out in space and be asked to defend 1 v 1. (Goalie have it tough as well 😃).

Carolina offense is fantastic but they would win if it were only average. They would Not win with the same offense if they were average on the back end or through the middle.

The original post came out of the blue and attacked the west coast teams as a whole claiming they are overhyped in the rankings every year. It was then pointed out that Stony Brook has been the most overrated / overhyped team in the history (many years...) in all of women’s lacrosse. It was not argued that this particular year Stony Brook not beat the west coast teams. The point was simple, Stony Brook has been the most overrated / overhyped program of all.

The funny thing is that stony Brook is notorious for doing exactly what you say Stanford is doing which is running up the score on week teams and padding stats.

I’m not sure why the assessment upset you.

Why so angry? Just an observation about lax on a lax forum. Certain girls have clearly separated themselves from the pack over the last few games. Great team win and that JO is on a different level!

Yes angry that some obviously jealous dad states that the most important part of a game between the two best teams in country was that it revealed who the real superstars aren’t . You obviously have an ax to grind with some player and yet are too cowardly to actually name them . You should speak your mind to the father of the player you feel is so overrated .

Syracuse needs to drop out of the top 5. Northwestern is the clear #2 and might be number one. NW has the best player in the country, UNC has the next 2. Big drop off after that.

When will everyone start focusing more on the Carolina defense. On average they hold teams to only about 6 goals per game (with a shot clock where there are more possessions per game). It is nearly impossible to lose when you completely dominate games defensively and at least play even on the draw. You could take away their best offensive player and they would still be undefeated and favorites to win it all.

UNC attack is fantastic maybe the best out there. But you are correct, it is their Goalie, Defense and Midfielders that sets them apart. This is nothing new, scoring goals will always garner the attention but it is team defense that wins championships. North Carolina could win the National Championship this year with an average attack and their attack is far from average, they might be the best unit out there.

To answer your question... “When will everyone start focusing on the Carolina Defense?”... The answer is “Never”... most lacrosse parents can only recognize goals, have very little understanding of the game and will never be able to recognize, quantify the value of any player not scoring goals.

NU plays in a pretty tame conference. Not like ACC
Scane can score goals but does she do anything else? Does she make players around her better. Thats what makes you #1

Same seems to be true of the top UNC point leaders. All these girls will be Tewaaraton finalists

Yeah, OK...

There is one formula to beating UNC.

You have to play Man to Man defense. The teams that have done this have had good success. Duke, UF and BC were close games at half. Don’t get me wrong the this final score were different stories but the over strategy of Man to Man hard pressure on ball worked especially for UF. KH and JO have a unique chemistry on field. So you at least need to take one away. They don’t beat you 1v1 very often to be honest. It is quick off ball cutting and passing. Secondly the goalie has to have a big game-15 to 18 saves. Lastly, you need UNC to have soon offensive sets where they simply don’t take care of the ball, and have unforced turnovers .

But as mentioned above you have to score 10-12 goals to win. That has been nearly impossible against UNC. If there is a little break down on the 1v1 D TM has been excellent all year at making that save. Otherwise most shots are being highly contested. UNC doesn’t slide fast. They trust the one v one match up which last year in NW almost cost them the game.

As you can see it takes almost a perfect effort by an opponent as nothing can breakdown, and a lot has to go right for the team game plan.

But you won’t win playing a zone against them

Ok so if its all about scoring goals why didn't Olhmiller win? Or why didn't Murphy make final 5?

Because you have to perform consistently while playing a tough schedule, while also playing for a Top Team... Final Four / National Championship Caliber Team. 17 of the 19 Winners played for ACC or Big 10 Teams (current conference alignment). One player from Georgetown and One from Princeton.

Sorry but if the player is not competing against tough teams the numbers are discounted.

Well Ohlmiller should have won her Junior year.. was more of a force then stukenberg.. but the committee went with the Maryland kid as is their norm.

Izzy Scane or Jamie Ortega get it. Nobody else close