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 Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Lacrosse is a third rate sport in NCAA, more people at a bad D3 football game than a D1 Lacrosse game. Realistically, no one cares, nor will they ever care. Sport is funded by football and basketball, even baseball throws a few bucks Lacrosse way, that is the truth. No one cares but you. But I still love it SPOT ON! Love the sport but the facts are the facts. These loons are also entertaining. Your missing the point!! My kids will all be going to college .I don't care if my kids plays lax in college. I want age based for a variety reasons ( fun, developing, safety, fair estimation of the work they put in.,.But scholarships are not one of them. Youth sports all need to have enforced age requirements. I disagree. I think grade-based makes the most sense. I can't wait to hear the basis for this position...! I really want to hear the logic..why would you choose age based for a youth sport? Simply put, because very soon my son will be playing middle school lacrosse, and after that, JV and Varsity. He will not be playing against kids his age... many/most will be older. This will better prepare him for that. Additionally, he is developing an impressive work ethic because he needs to work on his own time to take playing time away from the holdbacks on his team. And lastly, because I’m raising him not to make excuses when things don’t go the way he wants. I’m not concerned with T-shirts. I want him to develop into a hard working, independent adult. Not a whiny little snowflake who protests when he doesn’t have a “safe place” for writings in his journal. This is such a dumb post. Every single other youth sport that uses an aged-based system has procedures in place for kids to play up if that is what the family wants and what the coaches want. Depending on the sport/league/level of play there may be a formal application process, but nonetheless, kids who are capable of playing against older kids, and have parents and coaches who agree that it is appropriate, can play up. Thus, your exceptional 10 year old (this is the 2025 board, so I am assuming your child is 10, especially since you say he will be younger in HS and is competing now against holdbacks) will still be able to challenge and push himself agains older kids if that is what everyone wants. But the large majority of parents want their children playing against kids of similar age and skill level. The work ethic thing is comical. Are you implying that if he played against kids his same age he would not need to work because he is so good. Again, if this is true, than in an age based system, have him play up. What you are proposing is selfishness taken to an extreme. Essentially you are saying that because your 10 year old can play well against older boys, all other 10 year olds must also play against older boys. Anyone with a brain in their head and the ability to observe youths playing sports knows that the large majority of kids this age will see their performances deteriorate very quickly when thrown in with older kids. Once this happens, they lose interest in the sport, and move on to something else. There is a reason the best lax players in the world can't earn a living without getting a real job - its lack of interest in the sport. Age based youth play opens up the sport to more levels of athletes, who will more likely grow up to be paying consumers of lacrosse than if they didn't play lacrosse. Also, its beyond stupid to say that 10 year olds need to play against 11 and 12 year olds because when they are 16 they will be playing against 17 and 18 year olds. Every rational human being knows that after the full onset of puberty, there is very little advantage left for the 17 and 18 year old over the 16 year old. Do you let your 10 year old drive your car because he will need to get ready for driving when he is 16? Lacrosse should do what hockey does. All strictly age based until 16. At 16, the best players (those on a D1 track) can be selected for a junior team, which comprises of players age 16-20. The remainder who still wish to play can stay at age based. Very exceptional 15 year olds can apply for entry to juniors like John Tavares did. Lacrosse is a third rate sport in NCAA, more people at a bad D3 football game than a D1 Lacrosse game. Realistically, no one cares, nor will they ever care. Sport is funded by football and basketball, even baseball throws a few bucks Lacrosse way, that is the truth. No one cares but you. But I still love it SPOT ON! Love the sport but the facts are the facts. These loons are also entertaining. Your missing the point!! My kids will all be going to college .I don't care if my kids plays lax in college. I want age based for a variety reasons ( fun, developing, safety, fair estimation of the work they put in.,.But scholarships are not one of them. Youth sports all need to have enforced age requirements. I disagree. I think grade-based makes the most sense. I can't wait to hear the basis for this position...! I really want to hear the logic..why would you choose age based for a youth sport? Simply put, because very soon my son will be playing middle school lacrosse, and after that, JV and Varsity. He will not be playing against kids his age... many/most will be older. This will better prepare him for that. Additionally, he is developing an impressive work ethic because he needs to work on his own time to take playing time away from the holdbacks on his team. And lastly, because I’m raising him not to make excuses when things don’t go the way he wants. I’m not concerned with T-shirts. I want him to develop into a hard working, independent adult. Not a whiny little snowflake who protests when he doesn’t have a “safe place” for writings in his journal. This is such a dumb post. Every single other youth sport that uses an aged-based system has procedures in place for kids to play up if that is what the family wants and what the coaches want. Depending on the sport/league/level of play there may be a formal application process, but nonetheless, kids who are capable of playing against older kids, and have parents and coaches who agree that it is appropriate, can play up. Thus, your exceptional 10 year old (this is the 2025 board, so I am assuming your child is 10, especially since you say he will be younger in HS and is competing now against holdbacks) will still be able to challenge and push himself agains older kids if that is what everyone wants. But the large majority of parents want their children playing against kids of similar age and skill level. The work ethic thing is comical. Are you implying that if he played against kids his same age he would not need to work because he is so good. Again, if this is true, than in an age based system, have him play up. What you are proposing is selfishness taken to an extreme. Essentially you are saying that because your 10 year old can play well against older boys, all other 10 year olds must also play against older boys. Anyone with a brain in their head and the ability to observe youths playing sports knows that the large majority of kids this age will see their performances deteriorate very quickly when thrown in with older kids. Once this happens, they lose interest in the sport, and move on to something else. There is a reason the best lax players in the world can't earn a living without getting a real job - its lack of interest in the sport. Age based youth play opens up the sport to more levels of athletes, who will more likely grow up to be paying consumers of lacrosse than if they didn't play lacrosse. Also, its beyond stupid to say that 10 year olds need to play against 11 and 12 year olds because when they are 16 they will be playing against 17 and 18 year olds. Every rational human being knows that after the full onset of puberty, there is very little advantage left for the 17 and 18 year old over the 16 year old. Do you let your 10 year old drive your car because he will need to get ready for driving when he is 16? Lacrosse should do what hockey does. All strictly age based until 16. At 16, the best players (those on a D1 track) can be selected for a junior team, which comprises of players age 16-20. The remainder who still wish to play can stay at age based. Very exceptional 15 year olds can apply for entry to juniors like John Tavares did. Thank you! The gentleman did not say his kid was great, he said he is finding the advantage for his kid playing against older kids, everything he said is exactly what I went through with my son who was on age and graduated HS at 17. he was always playing against bigger, stronger and older kids and it made him well prepared when he started school ball. As for Hockey you are comparing apples to oranges since the top level players stay within USA Hockey and the best players on LI do not even play school hockey so they never wind up playing against older kids. In lacrosse you have 8th graders playing varsity in some towns so you can have 14 year old playing 18 year old... and for you 2025 parents, that is not that far away. Again, totally missing the point: no one ever has said that a player cannot play up. If a player is that good in an age-based system, they can do what similar talented athletes do in EVERY OTHER sport - play up! Your argument (or his) turns that idea on its head: everyone should play up for the benefit of the few and the disadvantage of the many, IE, playing up should be the individuals choice, NOT playing down. Lastly, the number of 8th graders playing varsity is so small as to not even be relevant to the discussion, but even for those few that do, it is their decision to make, so fully fits within the point i just made above. (And many of the best kids in hockey go and play in junior hockey in the US or Canada, of which there are multiple tiers, and the players range in age from 16 - 21 - so, not following how the fact that they don't play school hockey makes any difference.)
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Lacrosse is a third rate sport in NCAA, more people at a bad D3 football game than a D1 Lacrosse game. Realistically, no one cares, nor will they ever care. Sport is funded by football and basketball, even baseball throws a few bucks Lacrosse way, that is the truth. No one cares but you. But I still love it SPOT ON! Love the sport but the facts are the facts. These loons are also entertaining. Your missing the point!! My kids will all be going to college .I don't care if my kids plays lax in college. I want age based for a variety reasons ( fun, developing, safety, fair estimation of the work they put in.,.But scholarships are not one of them. Youth sports all need to have enforced age requirements. I disagree. I think grade-based makes the most sense. I can't wait to hear the basis for this position...! I really want to hear the logic..why would you choose age based for a youth sport? Simply put, because very soon my son will be playing middle school lacrosse, and after that, JV and Varsity. He will not be playing against kids his age... many/most will be older. This will better prepare him for that. Additionally, he is developing an impressive work ethic because he needs to work on his own time to take playing time away from the holdbacks on his team. And lastly, because I’m raising him not to make excuses when things don’t go the way he wants. I’m not concerned with T-shirts. I want him to develop into a hard working, independent adult. Not a whiny little snowflake who protests when he doesn’t have a “safe place” for writings in his journal. This is such a dumb post. Every single other youth sport that uses an aged-based system has procedures in place for kids to play up if that is what the family wants and what the coaches want. Depending on the sport/league/level of play there may be a formal application process, but nonetheless, kids who are capable of playing against older kids, and have parents and coaches who agree that it is appropriate, can play up. Thus, your exceptional 10 year old (this is the 2025 board, so I am assuming your child is 10, especially since you say he will be younger in HS and is competing now against holdbacks) will still be able to challenge and push himself agains older kids if that is what everyone wants. But the large majority of parents want their children playing against kids of similar age and skill level. The work ethic thing is comical. Are you implying that if he played against kids his same age he would not need to work because he is so good. Again, if this is true, than in an age based system, have him play up. What you are proposing is selfishness taken to an extreme. Essentially you are saying that because your 10 year old can play well against older boys, all other 10 year olds must also play against older boys. Anyone with a brain in their head and the ability to observe youths playing sports knows that the large majority of kids this age will see their performances deteriorate very quickly when thrown in with older kids. Once this happens, they lose interest in the sport, and move on to something else. There is a reason the best lax players in the world can't earn a living without getting a real job - its lack of interest in the sport. Age based youth play opens up the sport to more levels of athletes, who will more likely grow up to be paying consumers of lacrosse than if they didn't play lacrosse. Also, its beyond stupid to say that 10 year olds need to play against 11 and 12 year olds because when they are 16 they will be playing against 17 and 18 year olds. Every rational human being knows that after the full onset of puberty, there is very little advantage left for the 17 and 18 year old over the 16 year old. Do you let your 10 year old drive your car because he will need to get ready for driving when he is 16? Lacrosse should do what hockey does. All strictly age based until 16. At 16, the best players (those on a D1 track) can be selected for a junior team, which comprises of players age 16-20. The remainder who still wish to play can stay at age based. Very exceptional 15 year olds can apply for entry to juniors like John Tavares did. Lacrosse is a third rate sport in NCAA, more people at a bad D3 football game than a D1 Lacrosse game. Realistically, no one cares, nor will they ever care. Sport is funded by football and basketball, even baseball throws a few bucks Lacrosse way, that is the truth. No one cares but you. But I still love it SPOT ON! Love the sport but the facts are the facts. These loons are also entertaining. Your missing the point!! My kids will all be going to college .I don't care if my kids plays lax in college. I want age based for a variety reasons ( fun, developing, safety, fair estimation of the work they put in.,.But scholarships are not one of them. Youth sports all need to have enforced age requirements. I disagree. I think grade-based makes the most sense. I can't wait to hear the basis for this position...! I really want to hear the logic..why would you choose age based for a youth sport? Simply put, because very soon my son will be playing middle school lacrosse, and after that, JV and Varsity. He will not be playing against kids his age... many/most will be older. This will better prepare him for that. Additionally, he is developing an impressive work ethic because he needs to work on his own time to take playing time away from the holdbacks on his team. And lastly, because I’m raising him not to make excuses when things don’t go the way he wants. I’m not concerned with T-shirts. I want him to develop into a hard working, independent adult. Not a whiny little snowflake who protests when he doesn’t have a “safe place” for writings in his journal. This is such a dumb post. Every single other youth sport that uses an aged-based system has procedures in place for kids to play up if that is what the family wants and what the coaches want. Depending on the sport/league/level of play there may be a formal application process, but nonetheless, kids who are capable of playing against older kids, and have parents and coaches who agree that it is appropriate, can play up. Thus, your exceptional 10 year old (this is the 2025 board, so I am assuming your child is 10, especially since you say he will be younger in HS and is competing now against holdbacks) will still be able to challenge and push himself agains older kids if that is what everyone wants. But the large majority of parents want their children playing against kids of similar age and skill level. The work ethic thing is comical. Are you implying that if he played against kids his same age he would not need to work because he is so good. Again, if this is true, than in an age based system, have him play up. What you are proposing is selfishness taken to an extreme. Essentially you are saying that because your 10 year old can play well against older boys, all other 10 year olds must also play against older boys. Anyone with a brain in their head and the ability to observe youths playing sports knows that the large majority of kids this age will see their performances deteriorate very quickly when thrown in with older kids. Once this happens, they lose interest in the sport, and move on to something else. There is a reason the best lax players in the world can't earn a living without getting a real job - its lack of interest in the sport. Age based youth play opens up the sport to more levels of athletes, who will more likely grow up to be paying consumers of lacrosse than if they didn't play lacrosse. Also, its beyond stupid to say that 10 year olds need to play against 11 and 12 year olds because when they are 16 they will be playing against 17 and 18 year olds. Every rational human being knows that after the full onset of puberty, there is very little advantage left for the 17 and 18 year old over the 16 year old. Do you let your 10 year old drive your car because he will need to get ready for driving when he is 16? Lacrosse should do what hockey does. All strictly age based until 16. At 16, the best players (those on a D1 track) can be selected for a junior team, which comprises of players age 16-20. The remainder who still wish to play can stay at age based. Very exceptional 15 year olds can apply for entry to juniors like John Tavares did. Thank you! The gentleman did not say his kid was great, he said he is finding the advantage for his kid playing against older kids, everything he said is exactly what I went through with my son who was on age and graduated HS at 17. he was always playing against bigger, stronger and older kids and it made him well prepared when he started school ball. As for Hockey you are comparing apples to oranges since the top level players stay within USA Hockey and the best players on LI do not even play school hockey so they never wind up playing against older kids. In lacrosse you have 8th graders playing varsity in some towns so you can have 14 year old playing 18 year old... and for you 2025 parents, that is not that far away. You know nothing about hockey. What does "stay within USA Hockey" even mean? If you knew anything you would know that 'top level players' play junior hockey where players range from 16-20, so they very much play against older kids. As for your son, it's great that he played against older kids when he was a youth. Why should that be forced on families who don't want that for their kid?
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Such an endless whine fest. Again, the END game for Lacrosse is College, not pros, not Team USA just college. The sport is on a very limited budget. Coaches make minimal salaries, assistants make a barely living wage. Why do you think there are so many prospect days? Our kids play a regional game, with little interest outside our world. If you have been to a D1 game you will see parents and family members. About 70-100 people. If the weather is nice. Go to a D3 football game, 2-3000 people. So keep dreaming but it’s not going to change, ever.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Such an endless whine fest. Again, the END game for Lacrosse is College, not pros, not Team USA just college. The sport is on a very limited budget. Coaches make minimal salaries, assistants make a barely living wage. Why do you think there are so many prospect days? Our kids play a regional game, with little interest outside our world. If you have been to a D1 game you will see parents and family members. About 70-100 people. If the weather is nice. Go to a D3 football game, 2-3000 people. So keep dreaming but it’s not going to change, ever. There are plenty of other college sports that have similar (dis)interest, along with the same 'bleak' situation with respect to coaches and comp, post-college opportunities, etc. Yet, they all deal with an age-based systems in the same way that big sports do.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. OK - so let me bore you further . . . It's already been hashed out, but the two sports have more similarity than not for a number of reasons - just because you declare otherwise with no reasons presented for doing so means what exactly . . ?!! Your son(s) didn't "need" to play up because, in essence, the holdback situation is forcing everyone to play up to some degree, with that forced situation increasing relative to the increasing number of holdbacks each year. That forced situation may have helped your sons and others, but it likely has also hurt others; maintaining that situation as the status quo is apathetic. And your approach to making this a pure binary argument - deal with it = strong vs not accepting it = weak - is over simplified and intellectually lazy thinking. It may suit your 'argument', but it doesn't hold up well when you honestly assess all of the variables that go into a child's development. All of the people here have sons playing, they are dealing with the current situation, but also have a desire to make the system better - you can actually do both! Novel concept there, huh?! Some will only talk about it, others may be more active in that regard - that goes for anything, but that's how things evolve. I advocate for age-based play as a coach who sees that an age-based system will be better for all players - I am not sure that a change will impact my sons, as both are strong players on good teams today - again, probably a novel concept for you. Those "obscure" (NOT) studies have guided every other sport to come to a decision that age-based play was the best system for at least pre-HS aged SAs - EVERY SINGLE one! Those sports are all further along the time and maturity curve of lacrosse - they ALL dealt with these issues previously, and adapted to create a better experience, and the athletes being turned out by those systems have not lagged. Yet, your position is basically they ALL got it wrong! That's a pretty arrogant line of thinking, although not surprising within lacrosse - there is fair amount of elitism present in the sport. And like most elitism, it's usually not borne out by rational facts, but the elitism persists because the status quo is maintained.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Such an endless whine fest. Again, the END game for Lacrosse is College, not pros, not Team USA just college. The sport is on a very limited budget. Coaches make minimal salaries, assistants make a barely living wage. Why do you think there are so many prospect days? Our kids play a regional game, with little interest outside our world. If you have been to a D1 game you will see parents and family members. About 70-100 people. If the weather is nice. Go to a D3 football game, 2-3000 people. So keep dreaming but it’s not going to change, ever. AGE based..Never say ever!!!! Sport growing at a rapid pace. need Youth age regulations for so many reasons...Stop with the College and HS [ChillLaxin].
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. OK - so let me bore you further . . . It's already been hashed out, but the two sports have more similarity than not for a number of reasons - just because you declare otherwise with no reasons presented for doing so means what exactly . . ?!! Your son(s) didn't "need" to play up because, in essence, the holdback situation is forcing everyone to play up to some degree, with that forced situation increasing relative to the increasing number of holdbacks each year. That forced situation may have helped your sons and others, but it likely has also hurt others; maintaining that situation as the status quo is apathetic. And your approach to making this a pure binary argument - deal with it = strong vs not accepting it = weak - is over simplified and intellectually lazy thinking. It may suit your 'argument', but it doesn't hold up well when you honestly assess all of the variables that go into a child's development. All of the people here have sons playing, they are dealing with the current situation, but also have a desire to make the system better - you can actually do both! Novel concept there, huh?! Some will only talk about it, others may be more active in that regard - that goes for anything, but that's how things evolve. I advocate for age-based play as a coach who sees that an age-based system will be better for all players - I am not sure that a change will impact my sons, as both are strong players on good teams today - again, probably a novel concept for you. Those "obscure" (NOT) studies have guided every other sport to come to a decision that age-based play was the best system for at least pre-HS aged SAs - EVERY SINGLE one! Those sports are all further along the time and maturity curve of lacrosse - they ALL dealt with these issues previously, and adapted to create a better experience, and the athletes being turned out by those systems have not lagged. Yet, your position is basically they ALL got it wrong! That's a pretty arrogant line of thinking, although not surprising within lacrosse - there is fair amount of elitism present in the sport. And like most elitism, it's usually not borne out by rational facts, but the elitism persists because the status quo is maintained. Social Darwinism at its finest. For every study you find, I can find one to the contrary. Excuses are for the weak.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. Hard to know in an anonymous board who is posting what but this boring and repetitive argument has been debunked over and over again. Basically, you are saying that the current system has helped your boys and made them better players and men. That is great, and I am sure it is accurate. No one is trying to take this experience away from you, or from the next generation of families like you. But what is ignored over and over again by you and maybe others is that under an age based system, you can still have the same experience. You simply send an email to your coach that says, in sum and substance: "Dear Coach, I believe that my son Johnny would benefit from playing on the 2006 team instead of the 2007 team. Playing up will help him grown as a person, make him work harder, and challenge him more. I believe he has the skill and natural ability to play against older kids and will be an asset to the team. Thank you." If the coach/director agrees, than it will happen. An age based system is a win/win for everyone. Its as plain as the nose on your face. I really think that the persons who espouse the virtues of the current system are just simply club directors/prep school coaches/college coaches that benefit from the holdback pipeline, and are worried that in an age based system, talent will be more spread out, and they will lose their hold on the sport. As for age based systems leading to greater revenue for college and pro teams/players (pro only), yes it will help. Right now, the youth travel circuit is not set up to work for the more average athlete, whom are more numerous than the elite athlete. The average athlete is lost playing against older kids, and no amount of toughness or wall ball is going to make that kid faster, quicker or more aggressive. In an age based system, the tent can be greatly enlarged, and through the use of B, A, AA, and AAA divisions, more skill levels and paying customers can be accommodated. These are your future MLL ticket buyers, and media consumers. And of course, the best athletes can play in an older division if they and the coaches wish it to be so. The people who complain about comparisons to hockey are probably persons not involved in youth hockey. Using strict age based play, coupled with multiple talent levels, it is easy (much easier than in lacrosse) to find competitive games and tournaments. My kids have played against hockey teams from MD, PA, and MA on many occasions. Not once has any of these teams seemed older, bigger or more mature than our team. And the games have been competitive because teams at similar levels are matched up. But yet in lacrosse these three states, noted for their holdbacks, routinely field bigger, older and more mature players. And the games are usually a mess - either my son's team gets killed, or we win in a sloppy game against older, but less skilled opponents that gets needlessly chippy. The experience with the former is much better than with the later.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. Hard to know in an anonymous board who is posting what but this boring and repetitive argument has been debunked over and over again. Basically, you are saying that the current system has helped your boys and made them better players and men. That is great, and I am sure it is accurate. No one is trying to take this experience away from you, or from the next generation of families like you. But what is ignored over and over again by you and maybe others is that under an age based system, you can still have the same experience. You simply send an email to your coach that says, in sum and substance: "Dear Coach, I believe that my son Johnny would benefit from playing on the 2006 team instead of the 2007 team. Playing up will help him grown as a person, make him work harder, and challenge him more. I believe he has the skill and natural ability to play against older kids and will be an asset to the team. Thank you." If the coach/director agrees, than it will happen. An age based system is a win/win for everyone. Its as plain as the nose on your face. I really think that the persons who espouse the virtues of the current system are just simply club directors/prep school coaches/college coaches that benefit from the holdback pipeline, and are worried that in an age based system, talent will be more spread out, and they will lose their hold on the sport. As for age based systems leading to greater revenue for college and pro teams/players (pro only), yes it will help. Right now, the youth travel circuit is not set up to work for the more average athlete, whom are more numerous than the elite athlete. The average athlete is lost playing against older kids, and no amount of toughness or wall ball is going to make that kid faster, quicker or more aggressive. In an age based system, the tent can be greatly enlarged, and through the use of B, A, AA, and AAA divisions, more skill levels and paying customers can be accommodated. These are your future MLL ticket buyers, and media consumers. And of course, the best athletes can play in an older division if they and the coaches wish it to be so. The people who complain about comparisons to hockey are probably persons not involved in youth hockey. Using strict age based play, coupled with multiple talent levels, it is easy (much easier than in lacrosse) to find competitive games and tournaments. My kids have played against hockey teams from MD, PA, and MA on many occasions. Not once has any of these teams seemed older, bigger or more mature than our team. And the games have been competitive because teams at similar levels are matched up. But yet in lacrosse these three states, noted for their holdbacks, routinely field bigger, older and more mature players. And the games are usually a mess - either my son's team gets killed, or we win in a sloppy game against older, but less skilled opponents that gets needlessly chippy. The experience with the former is much better than with the later. Thank you!!! This is one of the best posts I have seen on this thread ever. Hope my kid is able to play with your son one day.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. Troll, No one cares if you are bored! I've seen your boys play, the older ones were terrible and they spent their time rolling their eyes at what a jerk you always acted like whenever you showed up at games or practice. Now they just despise you. The younger one is marginally better as a result of having older brothers, but he hates you as well. Who can blame them?
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. Troll, No one cares if you are bored! I've seen your boys play, the older ones were terrible and they spent their time rolling their eyes at what a jerk you always acted like whenever you showed up at games or practice. Now they just despise you. The younger one is marginally better as a result of having older brothers, but he hates you as well. Who can blame them? That's funny
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. Hard to know in an anonymous board who is posting what but this boring and repetitive argument has been debunked over and over again. Basically, you are saying that the current system has helped your boys and made them better players and men. That is great, and I am sure it is accurate. No one is trying to take this experience away from you, or from the next generation of families like you. But what is ignored over and over again by you and maybe others is that under an age based system, you can still have the same experience. You simply send an email to your coach that says, in sum and substance: "Dear Coach, I believe that my son Johnny would benefit from playing on the 2006 team instead of the 2007 team. Playing up will help him grown as a person, make him work harder, and challenge him more. I believe he has the skill and natural ability to play against older kids and will be an asset to the team. Thank you." If the coach/director agrees, than it will happen. An age based system is a win/win for everyone. Its as plain as the nose on your face. I really think that the persons who espouse the virtues of the current system are just simply club directors/prep school coaches/college coaches that benefit from the holdback pipeline, and are worried that in an age based system, talent will be more spread out, and they will lose their hold on the sport. As for age based systems leading to greater revenue for college and pro teams/players (pro only), yes it will help. Right now, the youth travel circuit is not set up to work for the more average athlete, whom are more numerous than the elite athlete. The average athlete is lost playing against older kids, and no amount of toughness or wall ball is going to make that kid faster, quicker or more aggressive. In an age based system, the tent can be greatly enlarged, and through the use of B, A, AA, and AAA divisions, more skill levels and paying customers can be accommodated. These are your future MLL ticket buyers, and media consumers. And of course, the best athletes can play in an older division if they and the coaches wish it to be so. The people who complain about comparisons to hockey are probably persons not involved in youth hockey. Using strict age based play, coupled with multiple talent levels, it is easy (much easier than in lacrosse) to find competitive games and tournaments. My kids have played against hockey teams from MD, PA, and MA on many occasions. Not once has any of these teams seemed older, bigger or more mature than our team. And the games have been competitive because teams at similar levels are matched up. But yet in lacrosse these three states, noted for their holdbacks, routinely field bigger, older and more mature players. And the games are usually a mess - either my son's team gets killed, or we win in a sloppy game against older, but less skilled opponents that gets needlessly chippy. The experience with the former is much better than with the later. Thank you!!! This is one of the best posts I have seen on this thread ever. Hope my kid is able to play with your son one day. If he does they’ll mostly likely be playing with dolls.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. Hard to know in an anonymous board who is posting what but this boring and repetitive argument has been debunked over and over again. Basically, you are saying that the current system has helped your boys and made them better players and men. That is great, and I am sure it is accurate. No one is trying to take this experience away from you, or from the next generation of families like you. But what is ignored over and over again by you and maybe others is that under an age based system, you can still have the same experience. You simply send an email to your coach that says, in sum and substance: "Dear Coach, I believe that my son Johnny would benefit from playing on the 2006 team instead of the 2007 team. Playing up will help him grown as a person, make him work harder, and challenge him more. I believe he has the skill and natural ability to play against older kids and will be an asset to the team. Thank you." If the coach/director agrees, than it will happen. An age based system is a win/win for everyone. Its as plain as the nose on your face. I really think that the persons who espouse the virtues of the current system are just simply club directors/prep school coaches/college coaches that benefit from the holdback pipeline, and are worried that in an age based system, talent will be more spread out, and they will lose their hold on the sport. As for age based systems leading to greater revenue for college and pro teams/players (pro only), yes it will help. Right now, the youth travel circuit is not set up to work for the more average athlete, whom are more numerous than the elite athlete. The average athlete is lost playing against older kids, and no amount of toughness or wall ball is going to make that kid faster, quicker or more aggressive. In an age based system, the tent can be greatly enlarged, and through the use of B, A, AA, and AAA divisions, more skill levels and paying customers can be accommodated. These are your future MLL ticket buyers, and media consumers. And of course, the best athletes can play in an older division if they and the coaches wish it to be so. The people who complain about comparisons to hockey are probably persons not involved in youth hockey. Using strict age based play, coupled with multiple talent levels, it is easy (much easier than in lacrosse) to find competitive games and tournaments. My kids have played against hockey teams from MD, PA, and MA on many occasions. Not once has any of these teams seemed older, bigger or more mature than our team. And the games have been competitive because teams at similar levels are matched up. But yet in lacrosse these three states, noted for their holdbacks, routinely field bigger, older and more mature players. And the games are usually a mess - either my son's team gets killed, or we win in a sloppy game against older, but less skilled opponents that gets needlessly chippy. The experience with the former is much better than with the later. Thank you!!! This is one of the best posts I have seen on this thread ever. Hope my kid is able to play with your son one day. If he does they’ll mostly likely be playing with dolls. Wow - how long did it take you to come up with that zinger . . . ?!
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. OK - so let me bore you further . . . It's already been hashed out, but the two sports have more similarity than not for a number of reasons - just because you declare otherwise with no reasons presented for doing so means what exactly . . ?!! Your son(s) didn't "need" to play up because, in essence, the holdback situation is forcing everyone to play up to some degree, with that forced situation increasing relative to the increasing number of holdbacks each year. That forced situation may have helped your sons and others, but it likely has also hurt others; maintaining that situation as the status quo is apathetic. And your approach to making this a pure binary argument - deal with it = strong vs not accepting it = weak - is over simplified and intellectually lazy thinking. It may suit your 'argument', but it doesn't hold up well when you honestly assess all of the variables that go into a child's development. All of the people here have sons playing, they are dealing with the current situation, but also have a desire to make the system better - you can actually do both! Novel concept there, huh?! Some will only talk about it, others may be more active in that regard - that goes for anything, but that's how things evolve. I advocate for age-based play as a coach who sees that an age-based system will be better for all players - I am not sure that a change will impact my sons, as both are strong players on good teams today - again, probably a novel concept for you. Those "obscure" (NOT) studies have guided every other sport to come to a decision that age-based play was the best system for at least pre-HS aged SAs - EVERY SINGLE one! Those sports are all further along the time and maturity curve of lacrosse - they ALL dealt with these issues previously, and adapted to create a better experience, and the athletes being turned out by those systems have not lagged. Yet, your position is basically they ALL got it wrong! That's a pretty arrogant line of thinking, although not surprising within lacrosse - there is fair amount of elitism present in the sport. And like most elitism, it's usually not borne out by rational facts, but the elitism persists because the status quo is maintained. Social Darwinism at its finest. For every study you find, I can find one to the contrary. Excuses are for the weak. No you can't, what a joke
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Stop comparing hockey and lacrosse. They are different sports entirely. One of the above posts actually implied that if lacrosse goes to age based then lacrosse players will be able to make a living playing the sport. That is ludicrous.
My older sons didn’t need to play up to be successful in the system as currently constructed, and my younger son is on a similar path (though admittedly impossible to extrapolate). And yes, he is developing a work ethic by playing against holdbacks, or any player that is better than him. What you see as lunacy, I see as opportunities to develop his whole person and make him a stronger future adult. You see it differently because you are a weak person and can’t relate to the necessity for challenges at a young age. That’s why you’re so bitter about it.
My son(s) play(ed) in this system and, as far as my eldest two, I’m proud of men they’ve become. Obviously, lacrosse played a small part in that, but it definitely played a part. They are scholar athletes who make no excuses. Something you clearly know nothing about. I’ve been through the system and have seen it’s benefits first hand. You, presumably, read some obscure studies funded to prove the point your trying to make, but have actually seen and done nothing.
This argument bores me and so do you. OK - so let me bore you further . . . It's already been hashed out, but the two sports have more similarity than not for a number of reasons - just because you declare otherwise with no reasons presented for doing so means what exactly . . ?!! Your son(s) didn't "need" to play up because, in essence, the holdback situation is forcing everyone to play up to some degree, with that forced situation increasing relative to the increasing number of holdbacks each year. That forced situation may have helped your sons and others, but it likely has also hurt others; maintaining that situation as the status quo is apathetic. And your approach to making this a pure binary argument - deal with it = strong vs not accepting it = weak - is over simplified and intellectually lazy thinking. It may suit your 'argument', but it doesn't hold up well when you honestly assess all of the variables that go into a child's development. All of the people here have sons playing, they are dealing with the current situation, but also have a desire to make the system better - you can actually do both! Novel concept there, huh?! Some will only talk about it, others may be more active in that regard - that goes for anything, but that's how things evolve. I advocate for age-based play as a coach who sees that an age-based system will be better for all players - I am not sure that a change will impact my sons, as both are strong players on good teams today - again, probably a novel concept for you. Those "obscure" (NOT) studies have guided every other sport to come to a decision that age-based play was the best system for at least pre-HS aged SAs - EVERY SINGLE one! Those sports are all further along the time and maturity curve of lacrosse - they ALL dealt with these issues previously, and adapted to create a better experience, and the athletes being turned out by those systems have not lagged. Yet, your position is basically they ALL got it wrong! That's a pretty arrogant line of thinking, although not surprising within lacrosse - there is fair amount of elitism present in the sport. And like most elitism, it's usually not borne out by rational facts, but the elitism persists because the status quo is maintained. Social Darwinism at its finest. For every study you find, I can find one to the contrary. Excuses are for the weak. Really? How about you find even just a few studies that support and advocate the idea of all players playing up across a sport -OR- studies advocating for grade-based play, and then post links here. We'll wait....
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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And there it is - the most cogent argument on BOTC today!
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sadly, it will only change when a boy gets seriously hurt by a "hold-back" "cheater" and the family sues the club.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sadly, it will only change when a boy gets seriously hurt by a "hold-back" "cheater" and the family sues the club. Yeah, and since that’s never happened before, I’m fairly certain it won’t happen in the future either. One of the reasons that it is a non-issue for clubs.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sadly, it will only change when a boy gets seriously hurt by a "hold-back" "cheater" and the family sues the club. Yeah, and since that’s never happened before, I’m fairly certain it won’t happen in the future either. One of the reasons that it is a non-issue for clubs. It always never happens . . . until it does!
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sadly, it will only change when a boy gets seriously hurt by a "hold-back" "cheater" and the family sues the club. Yeah, and since that’s never happened before, I’m fairly certain it won’t happen in the future either. One of the reasons that it is a non-issue for clubs. It always never happens . . . until it does! It does happen more times then we think. My kid plays on age. Like myself I would tend to think that the parents of on age kids are most likely very ethical and decent people. If my kid got hurt on the field and yes it has happened, I am not running over to the boy that hurt my kid to check his ID. That would be completely unethical, and I would never do that to a child.But his parents should be ashamed of themselves.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sadly, it will only change when a boy gets seriously hurt by a "hold-back" "cheater" and the family sues the club. Yeah, and since that’s never happened before, I’m fairly certain it won’t happen in the future either. One of the reasons that it is a non-issue for clubs. It always never happens . . . until it does! It does happen more times then we think. My kid plays on age. Like myself I would tend to think that the parents of on age kids are most likely very ethical and decent people. If my kid got hurt on the field and yes it has happened, I am not running over to the boy that hurt my kid to check his ID. That would be completely unethical, and I would never do that to a child.But his parents should be ashamed of themselves. Lawsuits happen all of the time - unless you're living under a rock, our society is very litigious, to the point that personal responsibility is almost passe! The threshold will be when a lawsuit or series of lawsuits comes where multiple parties - think club, tournament, locale, AND USL, etc - are all party to the suit, and they find for the plaintiff with damages for a significant amount where an age difference is a significant contributing fact in the case. That will be when the insurance carriers dictate that this practice will stop - no one will be able to get reasonable coverage without mitigating the risk, which means age-based play only. And while most on BOTC advocate for that need to only be for pre-HS ages, the reality is that if age-based play comes about via the insurance side of things, they will insist upon that for all ages. Too many tournaments and/or organizations have both pre-HS and HS ages brackets and it will be simpler for one type of insurance policy for all levels of play.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sadly, it will only change when a boy gets seriously hurt by a "hold-back" "cheater" and the family sues the club. Yeah, and since that’s never happened before, I’m fairly certain it won’t happen in the future either. One of the reasons that it is a non-issue for clubs. It always never happens . . . until it does! It does happen more times then we think. My kid plays on age. Like myself I would tend to think that the parents of on age kids are most likely very ethical and decent people. If my kid got hurt on the field and yes it has happened, I am not running over to the boy that hurt my kid to check his ID. That would be completely unethical, and I would never do that to a child.But his parents should be ashamed of themselves. Lawsuits happen all of the time - unless you're living under a rock, our society is very litigious, to the point that personal responsibility is almost passe! The threshold will be when a lawsuit or series of lawsuits comes where multiple parties - think club, tournament, locale, AND USL, etc - are all party to the suit, and they find for the plaintiff with damages for a significant amount where an age difference is a significant contributing fact in the case. That will be when the insurance carriers dictate that this practice will stop - no one will be able to get reasonable coverage without mitigating the risk, which means age-based play only. And while most on BOTC advocate for that need to only be for pre-HS ages, the reality is that if age-based play comes about via the insurance side of things, they will insist upon that for all ages. Too many tournaments and/or organizations have both pre-HS and HS ages brackets and it will be simpler for one type of insurance policy for all levels of play. How could any reasonable parent argue with that quote.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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One day, in the very near future, lacrosse will be an age based youth sport - and 5 minutes after that happens there will be parents on this site saying that youth lacrosse needs to have weight and height limits because it just isn't safe "my kid is XXXXX and they mature late and he can't compete with those 10 year old XXXXXXX kids already in puberty", and about a year later people will be saying it needs to be split by kids born in the first half of the year and kids born in the second half of the year because the January and February kids are just to big and strong to compete with. I know I am being snarky but the point is people will always complain no matter what. Sadly, it will only change when a boy gets seriously hurt by a "hold-back" "cheater" and the family sues the club. Yeah, and since that’s never happened before, I’m fairly certain it won’t happen in the future either. One of the reasons that it is a non-issue for clubs. It always never happens . . . until it does! It does happen more times then we think. My kid plays on age. Like myself I would tend to think that the parents of on age kids are most I'll tyr [quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Sadly, it will only change when a boy gets seriously hurt by a "hold-back" "cheater" and the family sues the club. Yeah, and since that’s never happened before, I’m fairly certain it won’t happen in the future either. One of the reasons that it is a non-issue for clubs. It always never happens . . . until it does! It does happen more times then we think. My kid plays on age. Like myself I would tend to think that the parents of on age kids are most likely very ethical and decent people. If my kid got hurt on the field and yes it has happened, I am not running over to the boy that hurt my kid to check his ID. That would be completely unethical, and I would never do that to a child.But his parents should be ashamed of themselves. Lawsuits happen all of the time - unless you're living under a rock, our society is very litigious, to the point that personal responsibility is almost passe! The threshold will be when a lawsuit or series of lawsuits comes where multiple parties - think club, tournament, locale, AND USL, etc - are all party to the suit, and they find for the plaintiff with damages for a significant amount where an age difference is a significant contributing fact in the case. That will be when the insurance carriers dictate that this practice will stop - no one will be able to get reasonable coverage without mitigating the risk, which means age-based play only. And while most on BOTC advocate for that need to only be for pre-HS ages, the reality is that if age-based play comes about via the insurance side of things, they will insist upon that for all ages. Too many tournaments and/or organizations have both pre-HS and HS ages brackets and it will be simpler for one type of insurance policy for all levels of play. How could any reasonable parent argue with that quote. I will try.... oh, never mind, you said reasonable and in that case I do not qualify. But the point is that if it is in fact a grade based tournament and the older kid is in the correct grade I am not sure USLacrosse and even the others would be liable. if they knowingly allowed older aged kids maybe but I am not sure what additional exposure they would have. PAL still have combined grade leagues (3rd/4th or 5th/6th) so how would that be any different than a 5th grade tourney having 5th grade players that have repeated a year? there are no simple fixes to this
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Lawsuits happen all of the time - unless you're living under a rock, our society is very litigious, to the point that personal responsibility is almost passe! The threshold will be when a lawsuit or series of lawsuits comes where multiple parties - think club, tournament, locale, AND USL, etc - are all party to the suit, and they find for the plaintiff with damages for a significant amount where an age difference is a significant contributing fact in the case. That will be when the insurance carriers dictate that this practice will stop - no one will be able to get reasonable coverage without mitigating the risk, which means age-based play only. And while most on BOTC advocate for that need to only be for pre-HS ages, the reality is that if age-based play comes about via the insurance side of things, they will insist upon that for all ages. Too many tournaments and/or organizations have both pre-HS and HS ages brackets and it will be simpler for one type of insurance policy for all levels of play.[/quote]
How could any reasonable parent argue with that quote.[/quote]
I will try.... oh, never mind, you said reasonable and in that case I do not qualify.
But the point is that if it is in fact a grade based tournament and the older kid is in the correct grade I am not sure USLacrosse and even the others would be liable. if they knowingly allowed older aged kids maybe but I am not sure what additional exposure they would have.
PAL still have combined grade leagues (3rd/4th or 5th/6th) so how would that be any different than a 5th grade tourney having 5th grade players that have repeated a year?
there are no simple fixes to this [/quote]
"One day, in the very near future, lacrosse will be an age based youth sport - and 5 minutes after that happens there will be parents on this site saying that youth lacrosse needs to have weight and height limits because it just isn't safe "my kid is XXXXX and they mature late and he can't compete with those 10 year old XXXXXXX kids already in puberty", and about a year later people will be saying it needs to be split by kids born in the first half of the year and kids born in the second half of the year because the January and February kids are just to big and strong to compete with. I know I am being snarky but the point is people will always complain no matter what." While snarky, it ignores the concepts of reasonable and feasible - age-based play is both reasonable and feasible. Do you know how I know this? Because EVERY.OTHER.SPORT.HAS.ALREADY.DONE.IT!!
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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"One day, in the very near future, lacrosse will be an age based youth sport - and 5 minutes after that happens there will be parents on this site saying that youth lacrosse needs to have weight and height limits because it just isn't safe "my kid is XXXXX and they mature late and he can't compete with those 10 year old XXXXXXX kids already in puberty", and about a year later people will be saying it needs to be split by kids born in the first half of the year and kids born in the second half of the year because the January and February kids are just to big and strong to compete with. I know I am being snarky but the point is people will always complain no matter what."
The above might be the single most uninformed post on this board, which says a lot. And its clearly made by a person who has a kid who only plays lacrosse. Nearly every single other sport has age based play, and I have not heard a single comment from anyone as to the things you are saying. I have had multiple kids in travel hockey for many years. Its always been birth year. I have not heard a single complaint along the lines of what you are saying. Not one. Same with Little League Baseball. People need to involve themselves with something other than lacrosse every once and a while.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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[/quote]
Lawsuits happen all of the time - unless you're living under a rock, our society is very litigious, to the point that personal responsibility is almost passe! The threshold will be when a lawsuit or series of lawsuits comes where multiple parties - think club, tournament, locale, AND USL, etc - are all party to the suit, and they find for the plaintiff with damages for a significant amount where an age difference is a significant contributing fact in the case. That will be when the insurance carriers dictate that this practice will stop - no one will be able to get reasonable coverage without mitigating the risk, which means age-based play only. And while most on BOTC advocate for that need to only be for pre-HS ages, the reality is that if age-based play comes about via the insurance side of things, they will insist upon that for all ages. Too many tournaments and/or organizations have both pre-HS and HS ages brackets and it will be simpler for one type of insurance policy for all levels of play.[/quote]
How could any reasonable parent argue with that quote.[/quote]
I will try.... oh, never mind, you said reasonable and in that case I do not qualify.
But the point is that if it is in fact a grade based tournament and the older kid is in the correct grade I am not sure USLacrosse and even the others would be liable. if they knowingly allowed older aged kids maybe but I am not sure what additional exposure they would have.
PAL still have combined grade leagues (3rd/4th or 5th/6th) so how would that be any different than a 5th grade tourney having 5th grade players that have repeated a year?
there are no simple fixes to this [/quote]
The liability will be couched in the use of a grade-base system - by virtue of using grades, USL, along with all of the other more direct parties, will have created an inherently unsafe and/or dangerous situation whereby players of disparate ages are playing against each other in a full contact sport. Further, despite USL age guidelines, there is no attempt to govern these guidelines, and any players who are more than one year above age for their grade are already in violation of the guidelines. And from practical application, no one (!) at any level attempts to validate even players' grade levels - not teams, not tournaments, not the USL. There are players playing down 2 years from their 'normal on-age' level based upon the proclamation that they "intend to" do a PG year!
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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[/quote]
Lawsuits happen all of the time - unless you're living under a rock, our society is very litigious, to the point that personal responsibility is almost passe! The threshold will be when a lawsuit or series of lawsuits comes where multiple parties - think club, tournament, locale, AND USL, etc - are all party to the suit, and they find for the plaintiff with damages for a significant amount where an age difference is a significant contributing fact in the case. That will be when the insurance carriers dictate that this practice will stop - no one will be able to get reasonable coverage without mitigating the risk, which means age-based play only. And while most on BOTC advocate for that need to only be for pre-HS ages, the reality is that if age-based play comes about via the insurance side of things, they will insist upon that for all ages. Too many tournaments and/or organizations have both pre-HS and HS ages brackets and it will be simpler for one type of insurance policy for all levels of play. How could any reasonable parent argue with that quote.[/quote] I will try.... oh, never mind, you said reasonable and in that case I do not qualify. But the point is that if it is in fact a grade based tournament and the older kid is in the correct grade I am not sure USLacrosse and even the others would be liable. if they knowingly allowed older aged kids maybe but I am not sure what additional exposure they would have. PAL still have combined grade leagues (3rd/4th or 5th/6th) so how would that be any different than a 5th grade tourney having 5th grade players that have repeated a year? there are no simple fixes to this [/quote] The liability will be couched in the use of a grade-base system - by virtue of using grades, USL, along with all of the other more direct parties, will have created an inherently unsafe and/or dangerous situation whereby players of disparate ages are playing against each other in a full contact sport. Further, despite USL age guidelines, there is no attempt to govern these guidelines, and any players who are more than one year above age for their grade are already in violation of the guidelines. And from practical application, no one (!) at any level attempts to validate even players' grade levels - not teams, not tournaments, not the USL. There are players playing down 2 years from their 'normal on-age' level based upon the proclamation that they "intend to" do a PG year![/quote] As to liability issues, assumption of risk is part of the analysis. At present, parents are putting their kids on the field while having no idea how old (or young) their opponents are. So it would be hard to defend these claims with an assumption of the risk defense. There is never any disclosure as to the age of the opponents or those participating in an event. Moreover, as has already been mentioned, no one in travel lacrosse - not clubs, not tournaments - requests verification of grade or age. This appears to be negligent in and of itself. No one exchanges rosters. There are no game sheets. Youth lacrosse tournaments are completely lawless and quite seriously unlike any other youth sporting event I have ever known. Moreover, the toxic environments on sidelines negatively affects parent's prospective of the legitimacy and transparency of the competition. Everyone just assumes that a big, fast and skilled kid must be years older, when sometimes he really isn't. Something is wrong with a sport when teams are supposed to be at the same level, grade-wise, but almost to a man one team is bigger than the other. This NEVER happens in age based sports. You can travel up and down the east coast with your kid playing soccer, hockey and baseball, and teams from every state will have basically the same average size as every other team. Some teams will have some freakishly big kids, but its balanced out by the small kids on the team. And everyone is fine with the freakishly big kid because they know his birth certificate is on file with the national (or state) organization, his name is on the roster submitted to same, and it would be easy to determine if cheating were involved. Youth sports certainly has a win-at-all-costs side to it, but you would be surprised at how little cheating really occurs when everyone has confidence that the rules are being followed by everyone and that there are controls in place making it likely that cheaters will be caught. Stated differently, coaches and parents that cheat in youth sports in issues of eligibility really don't want to do it. They just think they have to in order to balance out cheating done by others. Left confident that no one else cheats, coaches and parents rarely do.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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[/quote]
Lawsuits happen all of the time - unless you're living under a rock, our society is very litigious, to the point that personal responsibility is almost passe! The threshold will be when a lawsuit or series of lawsuits comes where multiple parties - think club, tournament, locale, AND USL, etc - are all party to the suit, and they find for the plaintiff with damages for a significant amount where an age difference is a significant contributing fact in the case. That will be when the insurance carriers dictate that this practice will stop - no one will be able to get reasonable coverage without mitigating the risk, which means age-based play only. And while most on BOTC advocate for that need to only be for pre-HS ages, the reality is that if age-based play comes about via the insurance side of things, they will insist upon that for all ages. Too many tournaments and/or organizations have both pre-HS and HS ages brackets and it will be simpler for one type of insurance policy for all levels of play. How could any reasonable parent argue with that quote.[/quote] I will try.... oh, never mind, you said reasonable and in that case I do not qualify. But the point is that if it is in fact a grade based tournament and the older kid is in the correct grade I am not sure USLacrosse and even the others would be liable. if they knowingly allowed older aged kids maybe but I am not sure what additional exposure they would have. PAL still have combined grade leagues (3rd/4th or 5th/6th) so how would that be any different than a 5th grade tourney having 5th grade players that have repeated a year? there are no simple fixes to this [/quote] The liability will be couched in the use of a grade-base system - by virtue of using grades, USL, along with all of the other more direct parties, will have created an inherently unsafe and/or dangerous situation whereby players of disparate ages are playing against each other in a full contact sport. Further, despite USL age guidelines, there is no attempt to govern these guidelines, and any players who are more than one year above age for their grade are already in violation of the guidelines. And from practical application, no one (!) at any level attempts to validate even players' grade levels - not teams, not tournaments, not the USL. There are players playing down 2 years from their 'normal on-age' level based upon the proclamation that they "intend to" do a PG year![/quote] Regarding town rec leagues in the spring (on LI they call this "PAL"), they will often have to combine years due to lower numbers and maybe just past practice and culture. Under an age based system, they can use a dual birth year set up, similar to what hockey does at many levels. The main point, though, is disclosure. When you sign your kid up and/or bring him to a game/tournament, you know the ages of the kids he is going up against. The parent can then make an informed choice. In the present system, the parent has no idea how old the other kids are.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Don’t really understand why any parent would not want his kid playing with kids his own age. Unless you are trying to take advantage of the current system there is no credible argument to oppose age based classification.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Don’t really understand why any parent would not want his kid playing with kids his own age. Unless you are trying to take advantage of the current system there is no credible argument to oppose age based classification. Especially when any player has the option to play up!
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Don’t really understand why any parent would not want his kid playing with kids his own age. Unless you are trying to take advantage of the current system there is no credible argument to oppose age based classification. I respect and understand your opinion but I find it so hard to understand how all the "age based" parents refuse to understand that people have a different opinion, this does not make us wrong, just of a different opinion. My son is on the young side of his grade and always was on the small size as well. I would always want him to play against kids in his grade and not worry about age (when with his summer travel team) and this was true in 3rd grade thru 9th grade - it obviously made no difference in school ball as that is always grade based. It is my opinion that there is a benefit by competing against kids your own grade that you would eventually have to compete against in prospect days and showcases. I would see no advantage in dominating the summer circuit with kids your own age and then go to Maverik or Jake Reed and have to go against kids in your own grade that have been playing against bigger, stronger and better competition.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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What a bunch of phonies, so there is an inherent danger to kids who play with older kids? Yet all of you eagerly send your sons into this environment. So, you're either really bad parents, or you don't believe your own nonsense. Which is it?
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I choose for my son to play against 2025's. That's why there is a "2025" classification, right ?
If I want him to play against older kids I would have him play up, which is what he sometimes does for his PAL team. That's my choice.
Most "holdbacks" (those who play down specifically for sports) have one thing in common: they are just NOT good enough to play with kids their own age! They know it, and so does everyone else.
It's all good tho, Karma!
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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What a bunch of phonies, so there is an inherent danger to kids who play with older kids? Yet all of you eagerly send your sons into this environment. So, you're either really bad parents, or you don't believe your own nonsense. Which is it? You obviously cannot understand the basis of an offer on supposition of a legal case to be made IF a party chose to do so. Just as with many other civil actions, proving that such a condition actually exists is not necessary - the mere risk that it might be accepted in court is and would be enough for parties to avoid that future argument. Unfortunately, it is currently less expensive to avoid a risk or settle on a claim with such risk than it is to prevail against a claim, even if prevailing is likely. Civil law has become less and less about justice and more about the path of least resistance/cost.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Don’t really understand why any parent would not want his kid playing with kids his own age. Unless you are trying to take advantage of the current system there is no credible argument to oppose age based classification. I respect and understand your opinion but I find it so hard to understand how all the "age based" parents refuse to understand that people have a different opinion, this does not make us wrong, just of a different opinion. My son is on the young side of his grade and always was on the small size as well. I would always want him to play against kids in his grade and not worry about age (when with his summer travel team) and this was true in 3rd grade thru 9th grade - it obviously made no difference in school ball as that is always grade based. It is my opinion that there is a benefit by competing against kids your own grade that you would eventually have to compete against in prospect days and showcases. I would see no advantage in dominating the summer circuit with kids your own age and then go to Maverik or Jake Reed and have to go against kids in your own grade that have been playing against bigger, stronger and better competition. I am an "age based" parent. I respect your opinion regarding what is best for your kid. In an age based system, you absolutely can have your kid play against older kids if that is what you want. If he is a 2007 (which most 5th graders are), than you just simply have him play on a 2006 team. Its a win/win for everyone. This is why there is no credible argument to oppose an age based system. Wanting your kid to play against older kids is a legitimate goal/argument. What lacks legitimacy is the idea that ALL youth players must exist in a system where there are absolutely zero controls or disclosures concern the age of participants, and you pull up to a tournament having no idea whether your 10 year old is playing against 10 year olds or 12 year olds, and indeed there may be vast differences in the ages of your opponents between your 10 am opponent and your 1 pm opponent. In fact, you should desire an age based system. Since you want your kid playing against older kids, an age based system ensures this through his participation in an older BY division. Under the current system, you may show up at a tournament and through luck of the draw find that his opponents lack the very holdback opposition you are seeking.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Lawsuits happen all of the time - unless you're living under a rock, our society is very litigious, to the point that personal responsibility is almost passe! The threshold will be when a lawsuit or series of lawsuits comes where multiple parties - think club, tournament, locale, AND USL, etc - are all party to the suit, and they find for the plaintiff with damages for a significant amount where an age difference is a significant contributing fact in the case. That will be when the insurance carriers dictate that this practice will stop - no one will be able to get reasonable coverage without mitigating the risk, which means age-based play only. And while most on BOTC advocate for that need to only be for pre-HS ages, the reality is that if age-based play comes about via the insurance side of things, they will insist upon that for all ages. Too many tournaments and/or organizations have both pre-HS and HS ages brackets and it will be simpler for one type of insurance policy for all levels of play. How could any reasonable parent argue with that quote.[/quote] I will try.... oh, never mind, you said reasonable and in that case I do not qualify. But the point is that if it is in fact a grade based tournament and the older kid is in the correct grade I am not sure USLacrosse and even the others would be liable. if they knowingly allowed older aged kids maybe but I am not sure what additional exposure they would have. PAL still have combined grade leagues (3rd/4th or 5th/6th) so how would that be any different than a 5th grade tourney having 5th grade players that have repeated a year? there are no simple fixes to this [/quote] The liability will be couched in the use of a grade-base system - by virtue of using grades, USL, along with all of the other more direct parties, will have created an inherently unsafe and/or dangerous situation whereby players of disparate ages are playing against each other in a full contact sport. Further, despite USL age guidelines, there is no attempt to govern these guidelines, and any players who are more than one year above age for their grade are already in violation of the guidelines. And from practical application, no one (!) at any level attempts to validate even players' grade levels - not teams, not tournaments, not the USL. There are players playing down 2 years from their 'normal on-age' level based upon the proclamation that they "intend to" do a PG year![/quote] As to liability issues, assumption of risk is part of the analysis. At present, parents are putting their kids on the field while having no idea how old (or young) their opponents are. So it would be hard to defend these claims with an assumption of the risk defense. There is never any disclosure as to the age of the opponents or those participating in an event. Moreover, as has already been mentioned, no one in travel lacrosse - not clubs, not tournaments - requests verification of grade or age. This appears to be negligent in and of itself. No one exchanges rosters. There are no game sheets. Youth lacrosse tournaments are completely lawless and quite seriously unlike any other youth sporting event I have ever known. Moreover, the toxic environments on sidelines negatively affects parent's prospective of the legitimacy and transparency of the competition. Everyone just assumes that a big, fast and skilled kid must be years older, when sometimes he really isn't. Something is wrong with a sport when teams are supposed to be at the same level, grade-wise, but almost to a man one team is bigger than the other. This NEVER happens in age based sports. You can travel up and down the east coast with your kid playing soccer, hockey and baseball, and teams from every state will have basically the same average size as every other team. Some teams will have some freakishly big kids, but its balanced out by the small kids on the team. And everyone is fine with the freakishly big kid because they know his birth certificate is on file with the national (or state) organization, his name is on the roster submitted to same, and it would be easy to determine if cheating were involved. Youth sports certainly has a win-at-all-costs side to it, but you would be surprised at how little cheating really occurs when everyone has confidence that the rules are being followed by everyone and that there are controls in place making it likely that cheaters will be caught. Stated differently, coaches and parents that cheat in youth sports in issues of eligibility really don't want to do it. They just think they have to in order to balance out cheating done by others. Left confident that no one else cheats, coaches and parents rarely do.[/quote] This by far, is the best quote I have ever heard on this website!!!! BY FAR.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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What a bunch of phonies, so there is an inherent danger to kids who play with older kids? Yet all of you eagerly send your sons into this environment. So, you're either really bad parents, or you don't believe your own nonsense. Which is it? You obviously cannot understand the basis of an offer on supposition of a legal case to be made IF a party chose to do so. Just as with many other civil actions, proving that such a condition actually exists is not necessary - the mere risk that it might be accepted in court is and would be enough for parties to avoid that future argument. Unfortunately, it is currently less expensive to avoid a risk or settle on a claim with such risk than it is to prevail against a claim, even if prevailing is likely. Civil law has become less and less about justice and more about the path of least resistance/cost. You’re argument is that it’s cheaper to let your son play even though you think he’s in danger. Good to know, thanks.
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Re: Boys 2025 - 5th Grade Fall 2017/Summer 2018
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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What a bunch of phonies, so there is an inherent danger to kids who play with older kids? Yet all of you eagerly send your sons into this environment. So, you're either really bad parents, or you don't believe your own nonsense. Which is it? You obviously cannot understand the basis of an offer on supposition of a legal case to be made IF a party chose to do so. Just as with many other civil actions, proving that such a condition actually exists is not necessary - the mere risk that it might be accepted in court is and would be enough for parties to avoid that future argument. Unfortunately, it is currently less expensive to avoid a risk or settle on a claim with such risk than it is to prevail against a claim, even if prevailing is likely. Civil law has become less and less about justice and more about the path of least resistance/cost. You’re argument is that it’s cheaper to let your son play even though you think he’s in danger. Good to know, thanks. If that's what you took from this, you need to go back and rethink the education you've supposedly received . . .
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