BOTC - US Lacrosse Community Forum Forums NORTHEAST LACROSSE BOTC MAIN FORUM (LI, CT, WC) Long Island Express Lacrosse

Yes

Approximately 50 families per grade from St. Anthony's and Chaminade would (~ 25 kids for each B and C team). There are hardly any other kids from public schools on those B & C teams.

Some cuda parents who helped assemble the team last year not paying full ride? Hmmm.

That is the rumor. Discounts for certain people.

Not just discount..free!

So not only are some of you bitter people going to tell parents where & how much to spend on for their kids lacrosse club team, not only are some of you expecting these clubs to charge peanuts BUT now if they don't charge a person than your going to cry about that also? Jeez, MIND YOUR BUSINESS. Holy crap the nerve.

Why should people be ok with paying full freight when others are not? how is that ok and not everybody's business?

The person who brought the cudas to the Express is no longer there. They have moved on according to the rumor mill.

Maybe you don't know those two parties business relationship! Therefore, you are assuming know their business deal. You don't, and furthermore you come off as envious, bitter AND not fully informed. Hearsay is a rotten thing because its empty.

Team 91 does it also. Its these owners BUSINESS to do what ever the [lacrosse] they want- WAKE UP!!!!!!

true

you don't think the owners pump up the price for everyone else to cover the cost of a few freebies?

Regardless of where people stand on this issue, the Express is going to have a very hard time dealing with these pricing allegations.

I suppose I always thought some clubs gave certain people a price break, which may be warranted in some cases (economic hardship etc.). However, the reality is that the people paying full freight are SUBSIDIZING the spots being filled by those not paying full cost. That might be nothing more than a business decision by the Express, but it doesn't change the economic reality -- a subsidy is a subsidy.

The question then becomes, do those expected to pay full price want to do so? Is it worth it to pay a subsidy to have a stronger squad?

This parent thinks not. I'd rather pay less, and have my son get more playing time, and not win every tournament, than pay more to watch some other 11-year old supposed superstar hog the ball (and still not win every tournament).

But opinions vary!

An the guy who owns the diner in town gives free desert for neighbors and free coffee to his brother-in-law, it's his business and he can do what he wants - Express is $2,400 - join or don't join, your call. Would you be happier if they charged $2,400 and kept all the money or if they charged $2,400 and helped some people that need it and also (allegedly) try to improve teams by offering tuition incentives to get talented players to join. Thank goodness colleges don't try to pull a stunt like that.

It is what the market will bear. $2400 is now the high water mark. If Express loses marketshare by not being able to recruit new "A" players combined with "B" and "C" players not seeing the value, they will hurt thier brand. You will see a season where the product on the field is less competitive and being beat by other LI Clubs that have recuited potential "A" express players. A summer tournament season of 2-3 may have the Express faithful scatching thier heads looking for options for the 2014 season. this may be a tipping point for Express. $2400 may secure the more affluent players but not the best players.

An excellent point. You hit the nail right on the head.

TBest post Ive seen in a while. Nice job!

Looks like team long island and 91 are going to have an overload next tryout season...Not to late to goto Dune Dawgs either........Unless they are doing year round playtime for that price which includes fallball , winter leagues , spring oyster bay.. All inclusive like Team Igloo does.. It was a good run for this program BUT as usual all good things come to an end !
Wouldnt doubt it if certain coaches are already reaching out to neighboring clubs.

Are the discounts only given to A team players?

If so, that means the B and C team parents are paying the costs for those A team players ... and not getting the benefit of having that player on the squad.

You can kind of understand if the discounted kid is on your team, but come on now. Can we get any further away from "amateur" athletics? What's next? Are W-2s going to be issued to the A team kids?

Am I on a lacrosse message board or CNN Financial Center's site?

In professional sports the BEST players - Free Agent get the BIGGEST contracts. In our situation, the BEST most desired player is getting the BIGGEST discount. It is basically the same difference. Being the best at your craft has benefits, whether a hugh contract or a perk to play.

Huge difference - in professional sports, fans, networks, and merchandising across a huge number of market segments allow for the best professional athletes to be paid at the highest rates.

Here in youth sports and particularly lacrosse, if your "B" and "C" players disappear from an organization following a discounting practice exclusively targeting the "A" players, explain how the ARITHMETIC (to quote Bill Clinton) actually works.

Problem with your model is that it simply does not work across an entire club when you only award top players. The model just has to be need based (as with many colleges now) when awarding financial aid.

Now, having run many teams in youth sports, my methodology was always to take the total needed to operate the team and divide that among X-2 players (assuming that there were X players on the team). Our experience was that there were always two (on average) parents in this economy who might have been short and we would be able to carry the cost without embarrassing the parent or player. In fact, this information was carefully guarded even when we disclosed the annual budget to parents.

What does this mean in real cash? An annual fee per player of $2000.00 with 20 players would have an annual budget for the team at $40,000.00. Here, we would charge each parent $2200.00 ($40,000.00 divided by 18 payers) in order to make up for any team shortfall. If we were fully funded by all parents, we would take the excess ($200.00 x 20 payments) and use the money for an extra team tournament, meal expenses at the extra event, and additional training.

I guess colleges should give everyone equal scholarship money or better yet no money to anyone. we live in a meritocracy fyi..

Let's not confuse scholarships (academic or athletic) with financial aid.

Often times, athletic and academic scholarships are endowed which is not the case for financial aid.

Our BOTC position is that parents should seriously question a program at the youth level which is providing scholarships to players for any reason other than financial hardship.

You are current, it is noones business what an owner does with how they run their business. But once an issue or rumor arises they need to address the issue.

If said diner owner gives free desert to one but not all, once that gets around everyone will want the free desert and if they dont get their share or worse yet will have to pay more for their desert, they will look elsewhere.

Wouldnt you.

Chocalate pudding please!!!

are these lacrosse decisions with financial ramifications or financial decisions with lacrosse ramifications? it is a business and as consumers we all have choices and thankfully lots of options.people need to stop worrying about this business and worry about their own kid and their own finances and make the best choices with both in mind.

Well, clearly the former, but your latter point nicely sums up the "B" and "C" player argument.

BOTC will often talk about value-for-money in our posts and when instructing folks (both on the boards and over e-mail) how to evaluate any program.

For example, a program at $2000.00 per year might provide huge value-for-money over a program priced at $1000.00 per year both in terms of included elements but also "fit" for the student-athlete and family.

Ultimately, value-for-money is a personal decision that is not based on the price alone which is why BOTC continues to provide as many options to our readers as possible. Every program we bring forward offers a different slant and therefore different audiences will take part (despite it all being tied to lacrosse).

The problem is that nobody except the directors will ever know if somebody is getting a free ride for performance or for need. They can always disguise an incentive as need based.

This financial aid information should be held privately.

Ultimately, the family of the player needs to decide whether the quoted price is providing value-for-money. If you believe that scholarships made available to players is the wrong approach for reasons other than financial aid, that would erode the value-for-money proposition - or might even be a deal-breaker.

Before going down this theoretical path any further, there is a simpler way to make your decision. Add up the costs of the tournaments, training sessions, and all other elements in the program. Divide this by the number of expected players on the team sharing the load. You can then decide for yourself whether a program is properly priced or not. Based on the pricing, you can then overlay your own value assessment.

While you would not expect General Motors to divulge the cost of every component in their cars, you can take an educated guess on the mark-up. So too, you can do the same in lacrosse - this just requires some extra legwork for those passionate to get to an answer.

I agree but the bottom line is to WIN. WIN and Elite players will run to you. LOSE and they go elsewhere. WINNING is exposure. WINNING brings fees. Elite kids choose who they will play for. Obtain them at any cost

I agree 100% - it is what it is, people want to play for a winner and a few free tuition kids that brings a winner will pay for it self going forward, good business

Someday the parents of the troglites buried beneath the surface on the B and C teams will decide to no longer carry the burden of the chosen ones in the sun on the A teams.

So, I struggle with what the end game is of the B and C negativity. The common theme seems to be that if your kid isn't chosen to play on the "A" team, then they shouldn't play for the Express at all. Is this to suggest that they would be "A" material on another team? If so, is that team really an "A" team? I would venture that the same kids wouldn't make the "A" team for other quality programs either.

As for the current cost structure, Express is just the price leader here. Others will be there shortly. In fact, they may already be if you tack on cost for the fall program, a helmet (supposedly, Express is including a helmet this year, but who knows for sure) and assorted other a la carte items.

The bottom line is that good is good and the best will always have opportunity. That's true in life and not just in lacrosse. The "B" or "C" kid should dig deeper and work harder, if their goal is truly to make the "A" team. That's a life lesson and that is what parents should be teaching. Instead, the common thread seems to be that a fraud is being committed and nirvana can be found elsewhere. The lesson of casting blame instead of hard work. Guarantee that most parents think their kid is better than they really are.

I'm sure there are some bad apples or poorly handled incidents, but many of the 93 pages dedicated to this thread deal with "if it's not "A" it's not worth it. That's just the wrong general attitude.

You have a well thought out opinion, thanks for sharing it. I agree, you are struggling, and apparently don't get it.

Not accurate. At least 2 kids did not even make the Express B team this past summer but somehow made a dynamite fl$ 2015 "A" team that was competitve on a national basis. They both had great summers for fl$ and had a great experience. Just becuase you don't make the Express "A" doesnt't mean your not an "A" player. Hmmm.

Walk a season in the cleats of a B or C team player - poor organization comminication, sporadic practices, half the team can't catch or throw. It's just bad and should not be the same price as an "A" team experience.

If you make and play for an Express or Team 91 "B" or a "C" team---the players who are mediocre feel like they hit the lottery because they're now playing for the Express or Team 91---in reality the training they receive is far inferior to the vaunted "A" team. You're lucky if little Johnny gets two coaches at all practices when most teams including the "A" teams get 3 or 4. Typically one coach will train 25 players on an Express B or C team. Every week the gate opens and players leave and new players are added as each spot on the team is a $1,400+ to the bottom line proposition. At the end of the summer the parents and players wake up and realize they were just duped and now they're out the ridiculous tryout fees (which is a moneymaking scam)+$1,400 plus the additional training dollars charged by channen"check" and the others. On top of that you'll pay to have little Johnny play in the channen"check" tournaments ($75 each x 25 kids) and the Oyster Bay Lacrosse League ($225 x 25 kids)---with each one come the standard channen"check" fees. This is A MONEY MAKING ENTERPRISE looking out for the bottom line, not the KIDS. Nothing more, nothing less. Wake up people and realize----if your son or daughter doesn't make the Express "A" team you may as well play for another decent team who will provide solid coaching and opportunity for little Johnny to actually learn and lay the game of lacrosse. When people start doing that the Express and Team 91 will no longer be able to operate in their monopolistic, money before everything else while we "sell the kids and the parents their dreams" manner.

What is it that they "don't get"? If you think the cost is too high you can choose not to play for this program.

The annual cost to play for my Town Program is more than $1,500 and that does not include the camp/clinic run by HS assistant coach that the kids are encouraged to attend.

All this nonsense will be done and gone in less than 5 years, when every HS coach on the island has a summer/town program. West Islip and Ward Melville do it, and Garden City just got into the summer lax business in a big way. All those programs have already drawn players off the big club teams.

Not all towns do it, and not all the best players have jumped ship yet. But it is inevitable ... the school coaches will want to get on the summer fee bandwagon (call it a bonus), the boys will want to play with their friends, and the parents will want the boys to get exposure to the middle school and high school coaches that they will eventually (hopefully) play for. And the bottom line -- it's less expensive.

In the meantime, if you want to pay premium dollars for someone else's kid to get an A team experience at one of the "elite" clubs, it's your money.

What town is that?