Use this thread to discuss topics pertaining to the 2019-2020 Women's Division I, II & III College Lacrosse season or go to 'The Locker Room' forum & click on the 'College Lacrosse' sub forum

-- "Why is it unacceptable for Duke but not any other school? Why is Duke Women's lacrosse in a different category than so many others?" --

Several reasons come to mind. Duke is a Top 10 Academic Institution, They Compete in the ACC, The University fully funds and supports the program, The Program has Admission Slots, Beautiful Campus, Great Weather, Easy to get to from Hot Bed areas, Up until the past 3 years the program was consistently Top 10.

Correct. Duke has a ton of inherent advantages that should lead to a very successful program. Look at their counterparts on the Men's side. The school supports these programs wholeheartedly. There's no reason that Princeton and Penn are stronger programs than Duke. How has Stony Brook become more successful than Duke? How has USC become more successful when east coast girls have to go all the way out there? How did Florida become more successful?

There's no excuse for what's gone on at Duke over the last 4 years and the school is running out of patience. A great replacement is now on staff and it would be an easy enough transition. If Duke struggles again I believe the change will be made.

The two biggest factors in a programs long term success are: Coaching and talent. The best coaches constantly identify the best players, convince those players to become a part of their program, coach and develop the players and create a culture that is constantly successful.

Duke was one of those programs but it looks like they have fallen off a bit the past few years. What changed? Are they not bringing in the talent? Did an important assistant coach move on? Did the fact that Duke did not aggressively jump on the band wagon of early recruiting? Duke should absolutely be one of the Top 10 - 15 Programs.

looking at the situation (without inside knowledge of the program) I think they missed out on too much talent during the 3 - 4 year stretch of "early recruiting". If they missed on 1 or 2 Top Recruits per year during that time frame it would be enough to hurt their program just enough to keep them out of that top group of 10 - 15 Programs. For sure it would keep them out of the top 4 - 6 programs.

It seams to me that the coaches at the top programs are able to identify the best players and then convince the players to choose to attend their school. When you look at the top programs it is easy to see why the coaches at those schools can land the best talent. The Duke coaches have everything they need in order to compete for the top recruits. Not so easy for many other programs.

Big year for The Blue Devils.

Didn't the current Elon Head Coach leave Duke in 2012?

Dont think they make the tournament again .

Is Michigan for real? Was last year a fluke?

Why? What’s so special about Duke?

Why the focus on Duke. The same can be said about UVA, ND (until this year), Hopkins...

Interestingly Duke just slipped two in the rankings for top schools. They were #8, tied with Penn, Penn moved up to #6, Duke to 10, now tied with Hopkins. I would rather see by kid go to Penn which is a better school, has great lacrosse , and is close enough to drive to easily.

No, it can't be said about UVA and Notre Dame. Hopkins is a very good program but they were not at the level that Duke.

UVA is one of the Top 10 Programs and ND is right there as well. Notre Dame finished outside the Top 20 maybe once in the past 5 or six years. Duke has not finished ranked in the Top 20 for the past three years. Not too long ago Duke was consistently a Top 10 finisher. Hopkins has finished the season in the Top 20 five times in the past 10 years

Hopkins

2010 - #20
2011 - Not ranked
2012 - #18
2013 - Not ranked
2014 - #15
2015 - #17
2016 - #16
2017 - Not ranked
2018 - Not top 20... (ranked 21)
2019 - not top 20... (ranked 22)

Hopkins is a very good program and an excellent school. They are certainly one of the top 20 -25 programs in the country. ND and UVA a little bit stronger in terms of lacrosse.

For whatever reason Duke has fallen off a bit the past few years. IMHO Duke missed out on some top recruits during the Hey Day of early recruiting. While other Top 10 programs were locking up their top recruits Duke was sitting on the sideline. Three or four additional studs on the roster and Duke would have been back in the Top 10. Even one dominant player can make a difference at a program like Duke.

Pretty sure they will be back in the mix this year but if not the coach is probably in trouble.

Okay, Duke didn’t recruit your daughter, everyone sees through this silliness. Move in.

Lol, so many better places to go. Duke Womans lacrosse will always be losers. School went downhill and took the lax team along. Have fun!

Thanks for your insight. Now tell us all what we should move onto? Bashing players perhaps? The Duke situation is interesting. What caused the downturn?

You have been posting this Duke nonsense repeatedly. Why? Tell us your odd obsession with Duke. It screams “snub”. I’m just hoping that your daughter is over it. Because you’re certainly not.

Really? Do you NOT realize that several people have been posting regarding Duke? My posts have actually been positive, in response to the questions:

"Why is it unacceptable for Duke but not any other school? Why is Duke Women's lacrosse in a different category than so many others?"

Below was my was my answer:

"Several reasons come to mind. Duke is a Top 10 Academic Institution, They Compete in the ACC, The University fully funds and supports the program, The Program has Admission Slots,
Beautiful Campus, Great Weather, Easy to get to from Hot Bed areas, Up until the past 3 years the program was consistently Top 10."

No obsession, no bitterness and sorry there was no snub. Why do you care that others want to discuss the current state of the Duke Womens's Program. Why must they move on?

Not really familiar with the other programs but lets take a comparison of UVA vs Duke. UVA coach has won a national championship and has reached NCAA final 3 times , Duke has 0 finals appearances. UVA has made every NCAA tournament since Myers has been coaching , Kimmel and Duke have not done so multiple times. Duke ended season ranked outside the to 20 the past 3 years , UVA has been top 20 the last 5 seasons and possibly longer with 2 of those seasons being in the top 10. As far as ND it has been said on this site many times that her job is or should be in jeopardy.

*** "Why the focus on Duke? The same can be said about UVA".... No, the same can not be said about UVA.

Below is how Duke and Virginia finished the season since 2010.

............... 2010......2011......2012......2013......2014......2015......2016......2017......2018......2019

UVA----------4--------14----------8----------9----------4----------8----------16--------14----------13--------7

Duke---------5---------5----------6-----------7----------8----------4----------11--------NR---------NR------NR

Something has gone wrong at Duke.

The Duke Women's Lacrosse program began in 1996 Virginia began in 1976. Virginia has won 3 National Championships and 5 ACC Championships. Duke has not won a national championship but has won 1 ACC Championship. Duke has made the NCAA Tournament 19 times in the programs 24 year history. Since the NCAA Tournament began in 1986 Virginia has made the Tournament 32 times in 33 years .

Virginia is one of five programs in the NCAA to be ranked at least once in every year of the IWLCA Coaches Poll. The poll was created
in 1988, with Dartmouth, Maryland, Penn State and Princeton joining Virginia
as the only programs to be nationally ranked every year.

For many years Duke was constantly one the Top 10 Programs. What happened?

Thanks for the analysis, bottom line, if Coach Kimel called tomorrow and offered your daughter a spot, are you taking it?....

Yup. so am I.

Most players but not all players would accept an offer from Duke. So the bottom line is... with all that Duke has to offer what has happened ? Why the downturn?

Personally, I think they will be back in the Tourney and The Top 20 this year and all will be well but if they are not than I think we will see a change in the coaching staff.

Hopkins is ranked the same academically, is travel friendly, and has better lacrosse.

LOL ND has been at the top of the recruitment lists for years now. My guess is that the recruits are overhyped, under-coached, or a combo of both.

I have not seen IL's 2019 Top 10 Freshmen Class Ranking but I assume from your comment that Notre Dame has the highest rated incoming freshmen class. If that is the case it will be the first time ND has had the Number 1 spot in the past 5 years.

Notre Dame has not been at the top for years. Notre Dame is one of a number of programs that usually bring in strong (top 10) recruiting classes. Maryland, North Carolina, Syracuse, Florida, Princeton, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Boston College, Loyola, Duke, UVA have all had classes ranked in the Top 10 multiple times in the past 4 years. Again, have not seen this years ranking but I am sure it will be many of the usual suspects.

ND is #5 and #7 in '19 and '18 respectively.

In both 2017 and 2019 they have the #1 recruit (supposedly).

In 2015 (their recent senior class) they had 4 Top 50 recruits.

Most of the Top 10 - 15 Programs will have Top Recruiting classes most years Notre Dame is no different. Maryland, North Carolina and Syracuse seem to have highly ranked classes every year. Notre Dame, Northwestern, Florida, Princeton, Virginia, Duke, Boston College and some others also bring in highly ranked recruiting classes just about every year. Penn, Loyola, Hopkins and some others are also in the mix from time to time.

The two programs that have done the best without highly ranked recruiting classes have to be JMU and Stony Brook. Penn State should be mentioned as well, I do not recall seeing any of their classes being ranked in the Top 10 and they are usually a Top 20 Team.

No surprise that the same teams that bring in the top recruiting classes tend to be the strongest programs.

With all their success why does Maryland have to play of that dopey Field Hockey turf field...

They don't have to they want to, they feel its an advantage.

I think the point that some are trying to make is: if ND, Florida and Duke are always at (or near) the top with their recruiting classes, then where are the final four appearances? Where are the championships? Why do they consistently fall-short of expectations?

over-hype of recruits, coaching, or both.

2023 parent here in NJ
Why do I keep getting emails about showcases over the winter in fFlorida? So many good schools but we are not going to go down for a weekend bc of basketball and it’s too expensive after going for the ICWLA.
Are these schools looking for Florida players? Where do the girls come from down here?

the dopey field hockey field was redone in the spring for the 19-20 school year.

Definitely overrated and overhyped recruits of course!c

Probably a combination but more so the coaching.

Here is a question... If the Lists, IL Player Rankings, UA All-Americans are always off and political then why are the teams that get the highest ranked players always the Top Teams and Top Programs?

Maryland, North Carolina, Northwestern, Syracuse, Florida, Notre Dame, Princeton, Virginia, Boston College, and a few others always seem to get the top ranked players and they always seem to finish in the Top 10 - 20. Where do all of these other teams who have all of the "just as deserving players" finish every year?

If the lists and rankings etc.. are alwaysl wrong, political and a joke wouldn't other programs constantly outperform the perennial top 10 -15 programs?

Congratulations to all of the Young Guns and Freshmen who were recognized by Inside lacrosse. Good Luck to All.

This year... Fall 2019 - LWomen's Top 10 Incoming Classes

1. Maryland
2. Notre Dame
3. North Carolina
4. Northwestern
5. Penn
6. Duke
7. Florida
8. Loyola
9. Syracuse
10. Richmond

Nice to see Richmond making some waves. The others bring in top 10 classes just about every year.

I'm not saying it isn't nice as Its a nice field .. but its designed for a different sport, the turf is like concrete..

[ [/quote]

This year... Fall 2019 - ILWomen's Top 10 Incoming Classes

1. Maryland
2. Notre Dame
3. North Carolina
4. Northwestern
5. Penn
6. Duke
7. Florida
8. Loyola
9. Syracuse
10. Richmond

. [/quote]

Maryland has the Number 1 incoming class... but there are [b]12 incoming Freshman[/b]! . there cant be a lot of scholarship passed around.. I figure they're whacking up 2.5 or 3 max scholarships between the 12 of them..

This year... Fall 2019 - ILWomen's Top 10 Incoming Classes

1. Maryland
2. Notre Dame
3. North Carolina
4. Northwestern
5. Penn
6. Duke
7. Florida
8. Loyola
9. Syracuse
10. Richmond

. [/quote]

Maryland has the Number 1 incoming class... but there are [b]12 incoming Freshman[/b]! . there cant be a lot of scholarship passed around.. I figure they're whacking up 2.5 or 3 max scholarships between the 12 of them..
[/quote]

State School. In state tuition much cheaper than out of state and pretty sure scholarships are based on out of state tuition. Can get a lot more for less to stay in state for both the student athlete and the lacrosse program. Given the fact that many players are coming from private schools with tuitions near 30k-40k per year a full ride to UMD can be beneficial on the pocketbook.

The answer is absolutely not. ask one of the best player's in the country, she ran as fast as should could from Duke, even potentially having to sit out a year. Speaks volumes... If your daughter is getting an offer from Duke, she is getting them from other great academic schools, choose one of those schools...

If you are throwing Duke under the bus, at least say WHY. That player could have left for a myriad of reasons, maybe Duke was not the right fit for her. Don’t scare people away from an amazing institution that by all appearances offers an amazing experience and education for all athletes.

Agree that if Duke is offering it is likely several other top programs would be offering. Not sure what you are answering with your comment "The answer is absolutely not". I assume that you do not think Duke will rebound this year and make the tournament and finish the season in the Top 20. Maybe they will maybe they will not but the question was what has happened, why the downturn?

I do not believe that there is a lack of talent and the University has a lot to offer. I think they will be back Top 20 this year and will remain one of the top 10 - 15 programs for years to come.

Maryland has the Number 1 incoming class... but there are [b]12 incoming Freshman[/b]! . there cant be a lot of scholarship passed around.. I figure they're whacking up 2.5 or 3 max scholarships between the 12 of them..
[/quote]

State School. In state tuition much cheaper than out of state and pretty sure scholarships are based on out of state tuition. Can get a lot more for less to stay in state for both the student athlete and the lacrosse program. Given the fact that many players are coming from private schools with tuitions near 30k-40k per year a full ride to UMD can be beneficial on the pocketbook. [/quote]


Of those Schools, Penn makes most sense, better school. If I wanted to travel, I would consider Northwestern or ND over Duke.

Can we please discuss something else? The poster has an obvious anti-Duke bias.

This year... Fall 2019 - ILWomen's Top 10 Incoming Classes

1. Maryland
2. Notre Dame
3. North Carolina
4. Northwestern
5. Penn
6. Duke
7. Florida
8. Loyola
9. Syracuse
10. Richmond

. [/quote]

Maryland has the Number 1 incoming class... but there are [b]12 incoming Freshman[/b]! . there cant be a lot of scholarship passed around.. I figure they're whacking up 2.5 or 3 max scholarships between the 12 of them..
[/quote]

10 of the 12 freshmen are "in-state" players and keep in mind that not all recruits are equal nor do all recruits receive the same scholarship $$. Scholarship dollars go a long way to the in-state recruits. It is my understanding that coaches have at their disposal a "dollar amount" for athletic scholarships. That dollar amount is calculated by the number of scholarships multiplied by the cost to attend the university (tuition, room and board, fees, books etc..) I believe they use "out of state tuition" in the formula. So, lets say 12 x $50,000 (aprox) = $600,000 per year.

If someone has country info please elaborate.

If that is the way it works, the coach can make it very affordable for the players and that is why Maryland has such a huge advantage.

Maryland has the Number 1 incoming class... but there are [b]12 incoming Freshman[/b]! . there cant be a lot of scholarship passed around.. I figure they're whacking up 2.5 or 3 max scholarships between the 12 of them..
[/quote]

10 of the 12 freshmen are "in-state" players and keep in mind that not all recruits are equal nor do all recruits receive the same scholarship $$. Scholarship dollars go a long way to the in-state recruits. It is my understanding that coaches have at their disposal a "dollar amount" for athletic scholarships. That dollar amount is calculated by the number of scholarships multiplied by the cost to attend the university (tuition, room and board, fees, books etc..) I believe they use "out of state tuition" in the formula. So, lets say 12 x $50,000 (aprox) = $600,000 per year.

If someone has country info please elaborate.

If that is the way it works, the coach can make it very affordable for the players and that is why Maryland has such a huge advantage. [/quote]


That is completely wrong .The coaches have 12 scholarships to work with , if you give an instate player a 50% cost of attendance it still equals 0.5 out of those 12 even thou its about a $14,000 monetary value. Give an out of state player a 50 % cost of attendance scholarship and it also equals 0.5 out of the 12 total but it value is closer to $26,000. those two players taken together would be equal to 1 full ride out of the 12 total they can give, in other words their scholarships count the same toward that total of 12.

Fall. Ball.

Who looks good????

Any schedules for this weekend coming up?

Would not give much thought to Fall Ball regarding game / scrimmage outcomes. Don't get me wrong, coaches and players want to win but the fall is when coaches try to see what they have. Most freshmen will get and reserve players from previous year will get playing time. If returning starters are dinged up or recovering from injury don't expect to see much of them.

In the fall players should want to show that they worked hard in the off season. Show up in shape, pass their run test, display sharp stick skills, be strong in the weight room etc...

Fall ball is a chance for freshmen and non starters from the previous year to impress the coaching staff.

As for "who looks good????" it really does not matter, lets see who looks good in May.

Oh I see, you joyless know-it-all, the bench and the freshman don't matter for a "team". Clearly who looks good in May matters most, thanks for clearing that up, but no point in having any fun watching and speculating based on Fall Ball. In fact, no point in even playing the games I guess since nothing matters 'till May.

Thank God for a wise lax sage like you to help everyone along. Get over yourself.

10 of the 12 freshmen are "in-state" players and keep in mind that not all recruits are equal nor do all recruits receive the same scholarship $$. Scholarship dollars go a long way to the in-state recruits. It is my understanding that coaches have at their disposal a "dollar amount" for athletic scholarships. That dollar amount is calculated by the number of scholarships multiplied by the cost to attend the university (tuition, room and board, fees, books etc..) I believe they use "out of state tuition" in the formula. So, lets say 12 x $50,000 (aprox) = $600,000 per year.

If someone has country info please elaborate.

If that is the way it works, the coach can make it very affordable for the players and that is why Maryland has such a huge advantage. [/quote]


That is completely wrong .The coaches have 12 scholarships to work with , if you give an instate player a 50% cost of attendance it still equals 0.5 out of those 12 even thou its about a $14,000 monetary value. Give an out of state player a 50 % cost of attendance scholarship and it also equals 0.5 out of the 12 total but it value is closer to $26,000. those two players taken together would be equal to 1 full ride out of the 12 total they can give, in other words their scholarships count the same toward that total of 12.[/quote]

looks to me the only assumption that might be wrong is the calculation of in-state vs out of state $$. In any event, Maryland has a big advantage over other programs. Maryland can offer an in-state player 1/3 scholarship and the cost to attend is very reasonable. That same player would be paying significantly more to attend UNC, UVA , Florida or PSU if offered 1/3 as an out of state student. The cost is way more if the player is offered 1/3 at Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame or Boston College. If the players parents earn a little too much money Princeton and Penn will cost a boat load... if the parents have multiple kids in college and are of modest means Penn or Princeton's cost would probably be in line with a small in-state scholarship offer from MD. Any way you slice it Maryland has a leg up on the competition.

Where did it say: "the bench and the freshman don't matter for a "team"." ? Where did it say: "no point in even playing the games I guess since nothing matters 'till May." ? The only point was that the outcomes of games are not indicative of what will happen in the spring. Freshmen and reserves from the prior year will get more opportunities to prove themselves than they will once the spring comes. Coaches know what they have with their returning upper-class starters and if a returning All-American is nursing an injury don't expect to see them on the field. Also, coaches do like to see that their players worked hard in the off season so showing up in-shpe, passing the run test, keeping their stick skills sharp and progressing in their lifts etc... are important.

Why so sensitive?

That is completely wrong .The coaches have 12 scholarships to work with , if you give an instate player a 50% cost of attendance it still equals 0.5 out of those 12 even thou its about a $14,000 monetary value. Give an out of state player a 50 % cost of attendance scholarship and it also equals 0.5 out of the 12 total but it value is closer to $26,000. those two players taken together would be equal to 1 full ride out of the 12 total they can give, in other words their scholarships count the same toward that total of 12.[/quote]

looks to me the only assumption that might be wrong is the calculation of in-state vs out of state $$. In any event, Maryland has a big advantage over other programs. Maryland can offer an in-state player 1/3 scholarship and the cost to attend is very reasonable. That same player would be paying significantly more to attend UNC, UVA , Florida or PSU if offered 1/3 as an out of state student. The cost is way more if the player is offered 1/3 at Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame or Boston College. If the players parents earn a little too much money Princeton and Penn will cost a boat load... if the parents have multiple kids in college and are of modest means Penn or Princeton's cost would probably be in line with a small in-state scholarship offer from MD. Any way you slice it Maryland has a leg up on the competition. [/quote]

Actually the point was more that the way you were calculating the scholarships was not correct in regard to in state players. The reason MD has a leg up is that for in state layers with little to no money given its still reasonable and MD has alot of good players. In terms of education level MD is not even close to being on level with any of the schools you mentioned other than PSU which can be looked at as a positive or a negative from a lacrosse standpoint.

and it is ND classic underachiever, another clueless coach who lets club coaches do her recruiting for her

at the end of the day, barring some insane behavior (see duke asst coach) it's pretty hard to lose a job that no university administrator cares about, women's lax is a title 9 baby that draws 200-300 friends and family to their games and is a revenue lost, as long as the school is not embarrassed by the team or coaches they don't care about these programs at all

Care to elaborate on the assistant coach “baggage”? Considering Duke and really don’t want to make an big mistake ...

Still hard to believe the animosity toward Duke in particular. Sour grapes? Duke is an amazing academic institution and at the end of the 4 years, education is what matters, not lacrosse. Go vilify someone else.

That's exactly the point. Duke is an amazing academic institution. But so is Princeton, Penn, Hopkins, Northwestern, etc. Something is amiss in Durham.

What is the assistant coach's "baggage"? And what about the new assistant coach who came from Georgetown?

I do not think it is animosity, sour grapes, throwing someone under the bus or an anti Duke bias; just facts about the lacrosse program. I do not read anyone arguing that Duke University is not a top education. The issues being noted are about the performance on the lacrosse field. Below are the five schools that have recruited the highest number of Under Armour All Americans during the 14 years it has existed. Duke has substantially under performed all 4 of those programs, 3 of them are miles ahead. Duke has not even made a national final. The other important fact about that list, all of those coaches have been there for almost the entire period of time, Reese missed the first couple of years. All the schools have had substantial talent, all have had the same head coach and only one is clearly lagging behind.

65 Maryland
53 North Carolina
50 Virginia
44 Duke
39 Northwestern

Is Duke considering your daughter? Did the Duke head coach offer your daughter a spot? Are you seriously looking for insight on BOTC?

Under Armour? How can there be any correlation between the programs that bring in the UA All-Americans and a programs success ? Many times I have read on here and heard on the sidelines and in my local pub that Under Armour, Inside Lacrosse, USLacrosse, etc... are all political and the players will disappear in college etc... I would think the programs that get all of the other "just as deserving players" would out perform the programs that consistently bring in the highest regarded players if in fact it is all BS and political.

Ok, so you want to use things like I read this or heard that as an argument? Show me facts that demonstrate it does not correlate. Her are some more for you.... of the 5 teams referenced above that recruit the most UA All-Americans, they have won 15 of the last 16 national championships or 94%. Let’s look at the 2019 D1 Media All-Americans. There were 48 women selected to the first, second and third teams. 34 or 71% were UA All-Americans. For the 5 teams referenced above, they had a combined 17 and 14 or 82% were UA All-Americans. You give any coach a better than 70% chance of getting an all-American, or, one of these 5 teams better than 80% chance, they would take that in a heart beat. It translates into results, big time, except at a place in Durham NC...

Here is a list of the 14 from the five programs listed above, you might recognize some of the names...

Caroline Steele
Jen Giles
Julia Bragg
Kali Hartshorn
Lizzie Colson
Megan Taylor
Jamie Ortega
Katie Hoeg
Taylor Moreno
Brennan Dwyer
Izzy Scane
Selena Losota
Olivia Jenner
Maggie Jackson

How is that possible? I have been told that the Inside Lacrosse rankings and Under Armour All-American selections are a joke. How is it possible that the players do so well and the programs who recruit these overrated players are consistently rank among the best in the country? Thats a real head scratcher.

All sarcasm aside.

I think it is safe to say that the people at Inside Lacrosse, Under Armour and the coaches at the best college programs know how to evaluate talent. They do in fact get it right.

No my daughter is a 2022 and I have a younger too. Both interested in Duke. She is a high level player in her year and plays on top team. but before we spend $$$ on camps and hotels and airfare this is an issue. Or is it. first I here she has to go to camp and is it a money grab, now all this. Sometimes people exaggerate on BOTC but sometimes things are true.

Maybe she is a high level player maybe not, only time will tell. Some parents have a pretty good idea of where their daughter stands while others are very delusional. Women's lacrosse provides tremendous opportunities for our daughters to take advantage of. I do not know of any other sport or activity that even comes close to women's lacrosse in helping our daughters get into many of the best colleges and universities in the country.

If your daughter is truly high end then it doesn't matter if she goes to camps or not. If your daughter can play at a high level but isn't a blue chip player (top 30 - 40 or so) then going to the camp can give her an advantage.

Duke is obviously great school with a very supportive athletic program and the Duke Women's Lacrosse Program has a very rich history. I believe they will right the ship this year and they will be back in the Top 20 at seasons end. Have they fallen off a bit the past few years? Yes, but nobody on here can tell us why. Keep in mind, they finished 21 in the coaches poll last year not exactly terrible.

Best of luck to your daughters I hope they get some love from the Duke coaching staff.

Not the Duke hater but to say they will be better this year than last is as delusional as those parents you speak about. They have lost their two best players who accounted for close to 50 percent of their offense. Lost their 2 best defenders . Honestly they will be lucky to win more than 2 ACC games this season.

Programs lose impact players every year. The top programs bring in impact players every year that is why they are consistently the top programs. Duke has been off from where they were but they are still a very good program. IMHO Duke will be back in the Top 20 at the end of the season. We all know the teams that bring in the top recruits just about every year and has been Duke is one of those programs. Maybe they missed on 2 or 3 studs in recent years but they are still an excellent program. If Duke did miss out on a few players during the early recruiting craze it was because Duke was trying to hold off not because top players do not want to go to Duke. Not saying that Duke didn't bring in good players just saying that having just 1 or 2 additional studs would have had Duke back in the Top 20. Do you really believe that Duke is going to fall off the map and no longer be a consistent Top 10 -15 program?

Thanks again for the facts and analysis copied below:

------ "Ok, so you want to use things like I read this or heard that as an argument? Show me facts that demonstrate it does not correlate. Her are some more for you.... of the 5 teams referenced above that recruit the most UA All-Americans, they have won 15 of the last 16 national championships or 94%. Let’s look at the 2019 D1 Media All-Americans. There were 48 women selected to the first, second and third teams. 34 or 71% were UA All-Americans. For the 5 teams referenced above, they had a combined 17 and 14 or 82% were UA All-Americans. You give any coach a better than 70% chance of getting an all-American, or, one of these 5 teams better than 80% chance, they would take that in a heart beat. It translates into results, big time, except at a place in Durham NC...

Here is a list of the 14 from the five programs listed above, you might recognize some of the names...

Caroline Steele
Jen Giles
Julia Bragg
Kali Hartshorn
Lizzie Colson
Megan Taylor
Jamie Ortega
Katie Hoeg
Taylor Moreno
Brennan Dwyer
Izzy Scane
Selena Losota
Olivia Jenner
Maggie Jackson" ----------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pretty sure you dispelled some myths....

* 50% of the players do not stop playing (at least not the high end players).
* The highly touted Inside Lacrosse top 40 / Under Armour All-Americans do not disappear in college.
* The collage coaches (at least the ones at the top programs) do not get it wrong very often.
* The lists, rankings, teams etc... are not a joke, they are not all political and the players recognized are actually for the most part the top players.

There definitely seems to be a correlation between how many Under Armour All-Americans a program gets and how well that program performs. The Top 10 - 15 programs look like the same Top 10 - 15 in terms of how many UA players they get. Maryland and North Carolina are 1 & 2.... no surprise there.

Exceptions to the rule: JMU, Stony Brook, Navy and Denver.

"Programs lose impact players every year. The top programs bring in impact players every year that is why they are consistently the top programs. Duke has been off from where they were but they are still a very good program. IMHO Duke will be back in the Top 20 at the end of the season. We all know the teams that bring in the top recruits just about every year and has been Duke is one of those programs. Maybe they missed on 2 or 3 studs in recent years but they are still an excellent program. If Duke did miss out on a few players during the early recruiting craze it was because Duke was trying to hold off not because top players do not want to go to Duke. Not saying that Duke didn't bring in good players just saying that having just 1 or 2 additional studs would have had Duke back in the Top 20. Do you really believe that Duke is going to fall off the map and no longer be a consistent Top 10 -15 program?"

Why would you think Duke would be a consistent top 10-15 program as their recent history tells you otherwise and as pointed out they lost their two best offensive players and two best defensive players.Not only is your post difficult to understand its also clueless. Duke missed out on exactly zero recruits because they in fact were recruiting as early as everyone else, to say otherwise is just false.There are many top players who have zero interest in going to Duke for many different reasons just like any other school. "Do you really believe that Duke is going to fall off the map and no longer be a consistent Top 10 -15 program?" They already have and are in fact no longer a consistent to 10-15 program.

Honestly you are just clueless. You can use fake stats however you want. The college coaches do not get it wrong very often is my favorite. Here is a stat for you , most of the players those coaches who rarely get it wrong recruit will spend more time on the bench than they will on the field. Do I think those players that are recruited by all the top schools and make every team they try out for have a better chance than those that have not, yes , but its not a lock thats for sure. Politics plays a big part in it all .

Please tell us what stats are fake? Please tell us the schools that consistently finish in the top 20 that do not get the highly touted players.

"Here is a stat for you , most of the players those coaches who rarely get it wrong recruit will spend more time on the bench than they will on the field." Myth. The poster pointed out the correlation between number of Under Armour All-Americans and a College Programs success. Not every recruit at the top programs was an UA AA, not all of the recruits are the same and coaches do not have the same expectations for each. The poster also pointed out that a large percentage of 2019 Division I All Americans were also Under Armour All-Americans. I would also bet that if you were to look at the the 2015 & 2016 Under Armour All-Americans the large majority were major contributors / played every game / started every game / captain etc... even if they were not named Division I AA.

Apparently , The coaches at the Top 10 - 20 programs, Inside lacrosse and under armour tend to agree on who the best players are.

The best programs seem to bring in the most UA All-Americans year after year and those programs consistently out perform all of the other programs. It looks to be the same 10 - 15 programs. As noted above, the exceptions to the rule in recent years have been JMU, Stony Brook, Navy and Denver (not sure about Denver).

Programs who have brought in the most UA players.

Maryland - 65
UNC - 53
UVA - 48
Duke - 45
NU - 42
ND - 38
Syracuse - 35
GT - 33
Fla - 31
Princeton - 23
BC - 21
JHU - 21
Loyola - 20
PSU -15
Stanford - 14
Penn - 13
Dartmouth- 12
USC - 11
Harvard - 11

Do not believe any other program had more than 10 (maybe Vandy). Surprises in terms of performance based on the numbers are Georgetown seems to get a lot and they have under performed. Also surprised Harvard has not done better as a program.

Please name a program that does not bring in UA recruits each year that has consistently out performed any of the Top 10 - 15 teams listed above that do bring in UA All-Americans. What is the reason for the success at the top programs? IMHO the number one reason is they bring in the best players. Coaching would be number two.

Duke finished last year 21st in the coaches poll. Every school looses top players.... the key is recruiting and Duke tends to do a pretty good job when it comes to recruiting. Duke plays a tough schedule and they were very competitive with some of the best teams in the country last year. Everything is in place for Duke to get back to being a top 10 -15 program. We all know not every top recruit will choose Duke but history tells us that a lot of them will. Not sure why the blip but I suspect they will be back.

It is completely true that the top programs have the lion's share of the UA girls. But I also feel that there is a very strong push from these coaches for their own recruits, as well as a benefit of the doubt that their recruits get, that helps these girls become the UA girls. As in, the process is often backwards, the kids were recruits of the top programs before they became shoe in UA selections. The coaches certainly want their own players recognized and push and pull politically first, for their incoming recruits, then for conference awards and honors, spots on select lists and teams and so on... until they graduate. Most kids are likely good candidates for most of these accolades, so it is not really that big of a deal. Just like any and all the lists you see compiled these days, the top 25% of any given list is likely non-disputable. The bottom 75% could very easily be swapped out with players just as deserving. Certainly not coming from a bitter standpoint on this, more from a standpoint of having benefitted from this as described.

I agree whole heartedly to this statement. Seen firsthand an early recruit recieve accolades they did not deserve and now that this so called wunderkind has seen teammates pass her by she is now plummeting down the rankings list. Which by the way IMHO is still ranked way too high

Gibberish. Not even sure where to begin. " Most kids are likely good candidates for most of these accolades". Really, Under Armour selects 44 players to be named All-American and you really think that most kids are on the same level as the 44? Wow. "Just like any and all the lists you see compiled these days." We are not discussing random lists, the only list that is relevant would be the Inside Lacrosse Young Gun Senior Girls Top 40 list. And here we go again with "just as deserving" as if there are hundreds of just as deserving players. Where do all of these just as deserving players go to school? Why do we see the same programs in the top 5 and the top 10 - 15 every year? Why are the top 10 - 15 programs the very same 10 - 15 programs that bring in the most Under Armour All-Americans? "the process is often backwards, the kids were recruits of the top programs before they became shoe in UA selections." How about this, the top programs recruited the players because they were the best players. If there were so many just as deserving players, if the college coaches got it wrong all of the time, if Under Armour and Inside lacrosse were all political and BS we would see much more parity . We do not see parity because the talent pool is not deep enough. Sure from time to time we see upsets and from time to time a non traditional team will be in the Top 15 but it is not on a consistent basis. Look at the numbers, the best programs constantly get the best players and those programs constantly do better than the other programs.

While there are many examples of players that were selected and go on to do great, there are just as many examples of players that certainly do not live up to expectations . Then there are hundreds of examples of players who were never selected who go on to kick butt in college. So ABSOLUTELY the bottom of these selection lists could very easily be swapped out. And it isn’t always the bottom of the list players that don’t work out. Hey, it’s fun and an honor to have your daughter recognized, be thankful and hope they have a successful college career. Don’t get too caught up in what you think all the praise means, be humble. Problem is, people don’t know how to do that.

I think the real problem is that some people want to attack whenever their daughter is not recognized. They want to diminish in order to elevate their daughter.

"Gibberish. Not even sure where to begin. " Most kids are likely good candidates for most of these accolades". Really, Under Armour selects 44 players to be named All-American and you really think that most kids are on the same level as the 44? Wow. "Just like any and all the lists you see compiled these days." We are not discussing random lists, the only list that is relevant would be the Inside Lacrosse Young Gun Senior Girls Top 40 list. And here we go again with "just as deserving" as if there are hundreds of just as deserving players. Where do all of these just as deserving players go to school? Why do we see the same programs in the top 5 and the top 10 - 15 every year? Why are the top 10 - 15 programs the very same 10 - 15 programs that bring in the most Under Armour All-Americans? "the process is often backwards, the kids were recruits of the top programs before they became shoe in UA selections." How about this, the top programs recruited the players because they were the best players. If there were so many just as deserving players, if the college coaches got it wrong all of the time, if Under Armour and Inside lacrosse were all political and BS we would see much more parity . We do not see parity because the talent pool is not deep enough. Sure from time to time we see upsets and from time to time a non traditional team will be in the Top 15 but it is not on a consistent basis. Look at the numbers, the best programs constantly get the best players and those programs constantly do better than the other programs."


First off I am not the guy you responded to but will say my opinion seems to come from the same background as his in that my kid has had many of those accolades but I realize there is a good deal of politics involved that she has benefited from. Your initial response just shows a lack of reading comprehension as when he says "most kids" he is talking about the players who actually receive the awards and not the whole population in general. Then you go on to preach that the only list that matters is the Inside Lacrosse Young Guns which has now become as political as it gets ( you want to move u or onto that list go pay them to play in there tournament) right after saying the list of UA senior AA is the best barometer of future success, so which is it. After that its just more drivel. In the end be proud of your kid when they make those lists but be humble and realize there are others who may not have the connections that have equal ability.

No one is arguing that some programs are always good because they consistently bring in top players, as represented with UA and IL rankings. The observation is that some schools have a lot of UA and IL ranked players, but don't over time perform better than programs with far fewer of those players. There are multiple reasons, but partly because some programs are "favored" in the process and their commits receive benefit of the doubt that other players don't get. None of it matters in the long run - best teams and players are determined on the playing field each year.

As you state: "best teams and players are determined on the playing field each year." I completely agree with you. After reading all of this banter I look at the numbers and I do not believe that they lie. No time right now to check on Harvard and Dartmouth but I do not believe that there are many teams that do not get a high number of UA Players that out consistently out perform the following:

Maryland
UNC
UVA
NU
Duke
ND
Syracuse
GT
Florida
Princeton
BC
Hopkins
Loyola
Penn State
Stanford
Penn
USC

It was stated that JMU, Stony Brook, Navy and maybe Denver are exceptions.

Please name all of the programs that consistently out perform the programs named above.

Not arguing there are programs consistently outperforming most of the programs above. But, there are programs doing more with fewer of UA players, whatever that is worth. The only program that really jumps out to me as over-represented based on program strength the last decade is JHU. Maybe GT, but they could have been a lot stronger in the early days of UA. USC has almost as many UA as programs that have been around a lot longer with many top 20 seasons. That doesn't mean the JHU, GT and USC girls named to UA weren't deserving. There are other factors at play. Penn and PSU seem under-represented compared to some programs with more UA. ND stands out most to me as having a lot of UA with good but not amazing results. I think people are actually being too hard on Duke. They've been down the past few years, but a lot of really strong years prior. I have no ties to Duke and it is not a school my daughter was ever interested in attending, so my opinion is neutral. Aside from the past two years they've been better than ND and as good as UVA this decade.

I think UA and IL do their best, and overall get a lot more right than wrong. They recognize individuals and there is some subjectivity to it, plus we all know there's more to team success than each individual's ability on its own.

Well said. At the end of the day none of it really matters. However, I think is was nice to see someone do the analysis and show that much of what has been spewed on here over the years regarding UA is just sour grapes. The equation is simple.... Best Players = Best Programs. It's about the Jimmy's & Joe's not the X's & O's.

There has been a fair amount of bander back and forth on this topic. I hope this information can help separate the fact from the fiction.

The HS graduating class of 2015 had the traditional 44 Under Armour All-Americans plus an additional 14 players who were selected to the US U19 Team for a total of 58 Under Armour All-Americans.

Below is how Under Armour class 2015 faired in College:

21 were All-Americans
13 were All-Confereence..... All-ACC, All-Big 10, All-Ivy etc... that is in addition to the players named All-American as I am sure the AA's were All conference as well.
15 were major contributors to their teams...... Starting and or Playing in every game.
6 were reserve players who saw limited playing time.
2 may have stopped playing due to injury.
1 Transferred to a school that does not currently have a Division I program.

Looks like 49 of the 58 had outstanding college careers. The numbers tell a much different story than what has been told on here by some.

Spelling police.... fared in college, not faired.. : - ) .... Banter , not bander..... ; - )

Oh and by the way several from that class captained their teams.... several were considered for the Tewaaraton Award and if I am not mistaken two from that group won the Tewaaraton Award.

You guys are pathetic . Have not seen anyone say the senior UA players are not successful but you seem to feel it is said often . Your analysis is also misleading, an example being one of the Tewaaraton Award winners was neither a senior UA member nor did she make the actual U19 tournament team , she has been clearly the best player in her class for years but in my opinion did not make the U19 tournament team and was ranked by Inside lacrosse too low because of POLITICS. Had the U19 team taken her they actually would have won .So of those best 60 in the country a third made one of the 6 AA teams , that sounds about right . Or in other words 2/3 of the greatest superstars in high school did not turn out to be superstars in college but most had successful college careers .

There you go again.... below see actual facts , not your BS. She was named Under Armour All-American and she was ranked 18 by inside lacrosse. Stop with your nonsense .

Directly from UA Site and Program.......

"This year, 14 girls of the class of 2015 were named Under Armour All-Americans but will be unable to participate in the game due to prior commitments to the U.S. Women’s Under-19 National Team. This group is still considered Under Armour All-Americans in the event’s records and will be acknowledged in a half-time ceremony during All-America weekend. The players are as follows: Sam Apuzzo, Natalie Bulgier, Olivia “Ya” Ferrucci, Samantha Giacolone, Jackie Gilbert, Miranda Ibello, Erin Kelly, Nikki Ortega, Hannah Proctor, Claire Quinn, Lindsey Ronbeck, Mallory Weisse, Francesca Whitehurst & Caroline Zaffino."

2014 ILWomen Top 30 Rising Senior Rankings

1. Sydney Pirreca, M, Mount Sinai (N.Y.), Florida

2. Lindsey Ronbeck, A/M, Manhasset (N.Y.), Florida

3. Miranda Ibello, M, Maryvale (Md.), Johns Hopkins

4. Nicole Levy, A, East Islip (N.Y.), Syracuse

5. Nikki Ortega, A, Middle Country (N.Y.), Notre Dame

6. Jen Giles, M, Mt. Hebron (Md.), Maryland

7. Claire Quinn, M, St. Anthony’s (N.Y.), Northwestern

8. Charlotte Sofield, M, Bishop Ireton (Va.), North Carolina

9. Olivia Jenner, M, McDonogh (Md.), Duke

10. Samantha Giacolone, G, Eastport South Manor (N.Y.), Notre Dame

11. Olivia Ferrucci, M, Barron Collier (Fla.), North Carolina

12. Elizabeth George, M, McDonogh (Md.), Princeton

13. Kara Klages, M, John Carroll (Md.), North Carolina

14. Gianna Bowe, A, Clearview (N.J.), North Carolina

15. Francesca Whitehurst, M, Roland Park (Md.), Georgetown

16. Julia Braig, M/D, St. Paul’s (Md.), Maryland

17. Erin Kelly, D, Clarkstown South (N.Y.), North Carolina

18. Sam Apuzzo, M, West Babylon (N.Y.), Boston College

19. Shelby Mercer, D, Century (Md.), Maryland

20. Ella Bonafede, A, St. Anthony’s (N.Y.), Duke

21. Samantha Lynch, M, Huntington (N.Y.), Notre Dame

22. Meghan Doherty, D, Mt. Hebron (N.Y.), Maryland

23. Hannah Pridemore, M, Vero Beach (Fla.), Liberty

24. Kathryn Hallett, M, Manhasset (N.Y.), Princeton

25. Mary Rahal, Queensbury (N.Y.), Syracuse

26. Genesis Lucero, M, La Costa Canyon (Calif.), Stanford

27. Lauren Daly, G, Shoreham Wading-River (N.Y.), Boston College

28. Taylor Gebhardt, A, Baker (N.Y.), Georgetown

29. Mallory Weisse, G, Westfield (N.J.), Northwestern

30. Natalie Wallon, M, Charlotte Catholic (N.C.), Syracuse

BTW, Ranked 11 for incoming freshmen in 2015. Not exactly overlooked.


1. Sydney Pirreca | M | Mount Sinai (N.Y.) | Florida

A two-time state champion, Pirreca heads to Gainesville as one of the top players out of the high school game in recent years. Dynamic, speedy and incredibly athletic, her ability to put a team on her back at crucial moments and produce under pressure is seemingly unparalleled.

Mandee O’Leary on Pirreca: “She’s a seasoned player, and we feel she can make an impact for us as a freshman… She’s used to having the ball in her stick, making game-changing plays, and we’re looking forward to having her in a Florida uniform for the next four years.”

2. Lindsey Ronbeck | A | Manhasset (N.Y.) | Florida

3. Miranda Ibello | A/M | Maryvale (Md.) | Johns Hopkins

4. Francesca Whitehurst | M | Roland Park (Md.) | Georgetown

5. Olivia Ferrucci | M | Barron Collier (Fla.) | North Carolina

6. Nikki Ortega | A | Middle Country (N.Y.) | Notre Dame

7. Nicole Levy | A | East Islip (N.Y.) | Syracuse

8. Olivia Jenner | M | McDonogh (Md.) | Duke

9. Samantha Giacolone | G | Eastport-South Manor (N.Y.) | Notre Dame

10. Elizabeth George | M | McDonogh (Md.) | Princeton

11. Sam Apuzzo | M | West Babylon (N.Y.) | Boston College

12. Claire Quinn | M/D | St. Anthony’s (N.Y.) | Northwestern

13. Erin Kelly | D | Clarkstown South (N.Y.) | North Carolina

14. Charlotte Sofield | M | Bishop Ireton (Va.) | North Carolina

15. Jen Giles | M | Mt. Hebron (Md.) | Maryland

16. Caroline Steele | A | Severn (Md.) | Maryland

17. Jackie Gilbert | M | Amador Valley (Calif.) | USC

18. Gianna Bowe | A | Clearview (N.J.) | North Carolina

19. Alexa Radziewicz | D | Christian Brothers Academy (N.Y.) | Syracuse

20. Shelby Mercer | D | Century (Md.) | Maryland

21. Mallory Weisse | G | Westfield (N.J.) | Northwestern

22. Hannah Proctor | M/D | Radnor (Pa.) | Notre Dame

23. Kady Glynn | G | Summit (N.J.) | Loyola

24. Caroline Wakefield | M/D | Centreville (Va.) | North Carolina

25. Julia Braig | D | St. Paul’s School for Girls (Md.) | Maryland

26. Emily Resnick | M | Webster Thomas (N.Y.) | Syracuse

27. Megan Taylor | G | Glenelg (Md.) | Maryland

28. Kristen Adams | D | Garden City (N.Y.) | Penn

29. Angie Loynaz | A | Greenwich Academy (Conn.) | Virginia

30. Alexis Phillips | M | Archbishop Spalding (Md.) | Penn State

31. Natalie Bulgier | M/D | Souderton (Pa.) | Georgetown

32. Kimberly Harker | M | Mahopac (N.Y.) | Northwestern

33. Kara Klages | M | John Carroll (Md.) | North Carolina

34. Genesis Lucero | M | La Costa Canyon (Calif.) | Stanford

35. Brooke Troy | A | Westwood (Mass.) | Boston College

36. Meghan Doherty | D | Mt. Hebron (Md.) | Maryland

37. Caroline Zaffino | A | St. Paul’s (N.H.) | Boston College

38. Emily McBride | M | Manheim Township (Pa.) | Virginia

39. Kristen Yanchoris | D | Century (Md.) | Loyola

40. Kaitlin Luzik | D | Bishop Ireton (Va.) | Virginia

41. Keeley MacAfee | M | Notre Dame Academy (Mass.) | Harvard

42. Ivy Arlia | M | Thayer Academy (Mass.) | Northwestern

43. Abby Shields | M | Vero Beach (Fla.) | Furman

44. Greta Meyer | M | Germantown Friends (Pa.) | Stanford

45. Taylor Gebhardt | A | Baker (N.Y.) | Georgetown

46. Ellie Majure | A | St. Stephen’s & St. Agnes (Va.) | Duke

47. Samantha Lynch | M | Huntington (N.Y.) | Notre Dame

48. Kelsey Cummings | A | McDonogh (Md.) | Maryland

49. Lauren Daly | G | Shoreham-Wading River (N.Y.) | Boston College

50. Alexandra Argo | D | Bryn Mawr (Md.) |Princeton

At any given time there are most likely more than 180 players competing in the ranks of Division I Women's lacrosse who were named High School Under Armour All-Americans. The IWLCA only selects 48 Division I All-Americans so obviously not all can earn the recognition. Any player who earns All-Conference in The ACC, The Big 10, Ivy is an exceptional player and would be considered a superstar by most. Any player who starts / plays in every game at one of those top 10 - 20 programs is certainly an outstanding player even if not being recognized with an award. So more like 85% have great college careers. The large majority play for the most competitive programs, they do not disappear, they do not ride the bench, they do not quit they tend to do very well. If you are getting on the field in competitive games at a top tier program it is safe to say you are probably pretty darn good.

Perhaps a different way will help you understand how impactful UA players are...At a minimum, Girls Lax team at the D1 level will carry 30 players. Take last year’s 2019 D1 rosters and you construct a team that does not include any UA AA and I will do the same but including only UA AA and perhaps that visual will end this discussion.

Surprised that some schools have not been able to develop a more competitive women's program. Ohio State, Rutgers, Yale, Cornell even Brown . I am not saying that they are not solid programs I am surprised because the Mens programs at the schools listed seem to have had more success. Dartmouth on the other hand seems to be the other way. I assume both the mens and women's programs get the same support from the universities. Both Michigan teams appear to be moving in the right direction. Towson Men and women are up and down but both are very strong programs. Loyola men and women are legit. Penn State men had lagged behind the women but it looks like they have caught up. Navy women have done an incredible job in a short time and Army is on the rise. The usual suspects obviously have very strong mens and womens programs. I'm sure there are other but those programs stand out to me. I think they should be stronger.

Why did 6 of 8 seniors quit the team at Yale?

If you really think women's gets the same support as mens you obviously never had a daughter play D1, nobody really cares about womens lacrosse other than the families. BTW both my daughters played for top ten schools.

Not all UA AA are the same...You take out the top 22 in the UA AA game, I'll take #s 45-66 and i bet on it, it will be a game...All this about the coaches,UA, and IL always right...dont think so...the best programs bring in 8-12 kids, basically all on top lists...coaches hit 3 studs per class, they are set...34 kids on a team, 17 play...that means a lot of top kids never see the field...

Ok, basic math lesson, if all the top teams bring in 8-12 kids and all of them are on the UA team of generally 44 players and only 22 are the difference makers, how in the heck does that work? 2-3 top teams take every single one of the top 22 and none go elsewhere? At least present something that is intelligible.

More nonsense.

“Ok, basic math lesson, if all the top teams bring in 8-12 kids and all of them are on the UA team of generally 44 players and only 22 are the difference makers, how in the heck does that work? 2-3 top teams take every single one of the top 22 and none go elsewhere? At least present something that is intelligible.”

Not the guy who posted it but your reading comprehension is painful or just a desperate attempt to prove your little super stud will have the same accolades in college . I can guarantee you that your princess has had less accolades than mine but you people are ridiculous as I have seen many highly touted players never become that player they were expected to be . You are basing successful college careers on essentially these players senior years , I would argue 1 successful year of starting for their team does not equal a successful career for these top 50 players in the country coming out of high school . If you don’t think that the top teams have multiple UA AA riding the bench each season you are clueless .

In what way do the universities provide more support for the men's programs? Are you saying that the reason for OSU, Rutgers, Yale, Cornell, and Brown not being better is because the universities do not support the women's programs to the same extent as the men's programs?

Players recognized on the incoming freshman top 50 rankings list are deserving. UA senior game players are deserving. Those players and their parents should enjoy the moment, but stay humble and don't make more of it than it is. Players/parents not recognized shouldn't take it personally or react with jealousy and bitterness. Use it as motivation, but understand those accolades aren't required for a standout college career. There is not this huge pool of players with equal talent being left off these lists, but there are players who in college achieve as much or more than the incoming top players. There are some really good players from the IL 2015 incoming freshman watch list who clearly were top 50 in their class as college players, most notably Dempsey Arsenault. None of the 2019 Tewaaraton finalists were top 10 incoming freshman, and two weren't even ranked top 50.

And the small minded little man was jealous and bitter and four years later he is still hating. BTW, she was a 2nd team All-American last year. You should really get some help.

Very classy calling girls out personally.

Wow, best post yet and the Tewaaraton point is actually pretty amazing

When you’re the best player in the country, you would think 1st team AA at least once? Just proves the point that a great HS player is not always a great college player. But there is still one more year to ppw! Or maybe media gets fixated on certain darlings who are just pawns. Parents get stunk thinking their kid is the Bestest, then ultimately disappointed when Sally doesn’t live up to the hype. #stayhumble

Wow, still can't get over it. Jealousy really has a grip on you. What a sad sack you are.

Can you be more of a jaded, jealous POS. I don’t even know who you are talking about but clearly calling out a young woman on a public board shows your lack of class. Your poor children.

Calling out for what? Not being the best player in college lacrosse? We are talking about an adult woman, not a kid. So calm down and take the point like a grown man and stop pouting. In case you forgot what the point is. Here you go again: The highest ranked HS players do not always translate into the highest performing college players. There are plenty of examples of this.

I am not the person you are responding but I agree with the poster. You are a complete POS. Not sure where you are getting your "point" from because I do not believe anyone ever said that the highest ranked HS players "always" become the highest ranked college players. I have read and heard it stated many times that the majority of the highest ranked HS players will disapeer in college. I have read many times that for every highly ranked player that does well there is one that rides the bench. I have read that there are hundreds of players who are over looked but are just as deserving. By highly ranked I believe we are talking about the Top 30 - 40 Inside Lacrosse Young Gun Seniors, The 44 Under Armour Senior All-Americans and The Inside Lacrosse Top 50 Incoming Freshmen Rankings (For the most part it is all of the same players).

From what I can tell These 40 -50 players do pan out and they do very well. Most go to the top 10 -15 Programs. Those Programs tend to be the same every year.

Are there players who do not get recognized by UA or IL that end up doing very well in college? Yes there are. Are there some players who are recognized who do not live up to the hype? Yes. (But the majority do just fine)

Results and numbers do not lie. The college coaches from the best programs seem to Identify the same players as IL and UA. Those programs consistently out perform the programs that do not get the highly touted players. And by the way The programs that bring in the highest "number" of highly touted recruits consistently out perform the programs that bring in fewer highly touted recruits.

If the majority of the top 50 players didn't pan out the programs that tend to get most of them would not be doing very well.

If you are the same person you seem to have an obsession with a particular player and attack her every so often. The player was considered one of the Top 24 players in the country last season and you are still carrying on about her not living up to her HS Ranking. It's idiotic, it's been years it is insane.

Define success, most players would welcome her career. The Inside Lacrosse rankings are not my favorite, to pick a 1-100 ranking is going to have substantial variations. That said, I would expect a top 44 IL player (UA type team numbers) to be an All-American during their career. The player folks are trying to hold-up as an example of not having college success seems strange to me. Two time All-American with a year left. If her success continues, you really going to use a 3x All-American as an example of failing in college?

2018 third team All-American
2019 second team All-American
2020 ?

It’s the same POS who made up the AA Ivy League player. He’s a twisted little person.

The guy has issues. Whatever it is jealousy or whatever he clearly needs help. However, it is not realistic to expect every Inside Lacrosse Top 40 Player or Under Armour player to make All-American in college. The numbers do not allow for it. There are 48 Division I All-Americans each year. There are 44 Under Armour All Americans each year that means that there could be 176 former UA-AA's playing Division I each year plus some redshirts more likely 180 plus. Obviously they are not all going to be All-Americans in college.

Most do very well at the college level.

Certainly not a bad player, in fact she’s had an above average college career to be proud of. Just not in the conversation of the best players out there...sorry. There is a difference between good and great. She’s not in the same league as the Sam Apuzzo’s, Jamie Ortega, Lasota, Asrsnault , Kent, Giles. Why so mad? Let’s see what happens this year, wish all the hard working girls out there the best.

Your daughter is not an AA Ivy player, please go away with your made-up princess.

Thank you all knowing lacrosse expert. Thanks for clearing all of this up for the rest of us. We can all envision you whining and complaining back on that dreaded day in 2015 when your daughter was overlooked. We can hear you now "My daughter is just a deserving. The girl is not that good. She is overrated, she will disappear in college, my daughter scored more goals, the ranking is a joke, its all political, she will never see the field, she will ride the bench... bla bla bla...". Now here we are four years later and you are still bitter and jealous. Still spewing venom in a backhanded way trying to hide your ire and sound rational. Still carrying with you all of those sour grapes, still trying to diminish the player, her abilities, accomplishments and accolades with your moronic babble. The fact that you are still carrying on tells us all that we need to know about you.

Does anyone know if this is accurate and true? If true, I would guess the reason is that they think the coach is a crackpot.

#stayadouche

Yes it's true. The new coach put unrealistic requirements on the team in terms of practice times that were setup after the girls already had their schedules set.

was at BC watching lacrosse with my daughter, can some explain how the Duke transfer is already cleared to play this season? always thought transfers from the same conference had to sit out a year.

Not 100% sure... but I have been told that if the Duke coach does not release the player then the Duke coach can not use whatever scholarship $$ the players was receiving while at Duke. If the Duke coach releases the player then that money is freed up to give to another player.

It's fall ball

I believe she is either eligible to compete or she is not. Fall or spring it does not matter.

Plus I think if the Duke coach okays it then the player can play anyway.

She appealed to the NCAA and it was granted . Would be interesting to know why she left .

Here are the reasons:
1-Not going to start
2-Doesn't like the campus
3-Doesn't get along with coach/teammates

That's about the extent of it.

She was just named to the US Training Roster of 27 players for the US Team. For their Fall competition. Yeah, has't done much.

The snake just can't get over it. Tough being you.

It happens at all the Ivy's, if you're not playing after two years it's time to move on, a lot of kids will opt for study abroad and many other options available to them rather than be a practice dummy, there's no scholarship money to lose, so its a choice that is easily made

1. she was by far the best offensive player and already started two years
2. see above
3. Maybe

Really? "It happens at all the Ivy's?" Last years Ivy rosters:

2019

Dartmouth: 9 Seniors.
Cornell: 7 Seniors.
Princeton: 7 Seniors
Coumbia: 7 Seniors.
Brown: 5 Seniors.
Penn: 4 Seniors
Yale: 3 Seniors.

I would imagine most Ivy's do not bring in more than 8 - 9 players per year. Some will no doubt be forced out due to injury and some go in knowing they are never see the field. Although all of the players going Ivy have excellent grades and test scores 1 or 2 per class will have "supe high" academics these kids and are not brought in for their athletic prowess.

95% of the seniors quitting is not normal and it does not happen all of the time at the Ivy's. More fake news.

I also think she's overrated. Lots of hustle, too many yellows. I'm not the guy under the rock, either, FYI, just another observer.

Talk about not being informed. She was the leading scorer the last 2 years and would have broken the
career scoring record at Duke. I'm told girls at Duke and BC really like her. She wants to play at a more competitive program, where she can showcase her talents better.

Talk about being blinded by stats , was not their best offensive player and was clearly out played by OJ in the big games. Yes she put up big numbers on the backs of lesser teams and celebrated each one like she just won a national championship. By the way she was claiming some form of trauma to the NCAA as in mental due to coaches, players or both so your claim of wanting to go to a more competitive team this year is ridiculous. Also what is with the Duke stat padding , look at their shots taken vs goals and tell me those shooting percentages are accurate .

So you and the other observer must know more than just about every college coach in the country including The Stony Brook Coach, The North Carolina Coach and obviously the USC Coach.

Do you hear yourself? She was named a Division I Second Team All-American (That means that the Division I Coaches consider her to be one of the Top 32 players in the country). She just earned one of 27 roster spots on the US Team for their training this fall.

But you two know better. Thats funny .

Pretty fair point...she had 47pts against presb,ecu,vcu,w&m and campbell...1 goal against bc and unc and 1 asst against syracuse...Does she really want to play at a more competitive program? careful what you wish for.

Well, appears you want to cherry pick stats that help make your point, I will fill in some of the blanks. She went 5&1 against Northwestern, 4&0 against Penn, 4&1 against Virginia, 4&0 against Notre Dame, 3&0 against Notre Dame and 2&1 against UNC. I watched two games last year and she was face guarded for some/all of the game. She put up these stats being face guarded during games. She had two great seasons at Duke while Duke did not make the playoffs in either one. I'll repeat that, Duke did not make the playoffs in either season. She left to try and make the playoffs and have at least a chance to win a championship. I wish her the best of luck. Go to Duke for the degree, not the lacrosse...

Not a fan of hers either because of the egregious stick flips and celebrations after goals but to her credit if you watch the games against those better teams she was always face guarded for the majority of the games. In fact she was face guarded the majority of her freshman year as well and still managed to put up numbers. Without a balanced attack teams were able to face guard her and take her out of the offense.

"Well, appears you want to cherry pick stats that help make your point, I will fill in some of the blanks. She went 5&1 against Northwestern, 4&0 against Penn, 4&1 against Virginia, 4&0 against Notre Dame, 3&0 against Notre Dame and 2&1 against UNC. I watched two games last year and she was face guarded for some/all of the game. She put up these stats being face guarded during games. She had two great seasons at Duke while Duke did not make the playoffs in either one. I'll repeat that, Duke did not make the playoffs in either season. She left to try and make the playoffs and have at least a chance to win a championship. I wish her the best of luck. Go to Duke for the degree, not the lacrosse..."

Cherry pick stats is exactly what you have done. To say she was "by far" their best offensive player is just ignorant and if you watched Duke in the ACC tournament she was not the biggest threat on her team. If she has transferred to BC to win anything she has picked the wrong school as they will be around the 4-5 best team in the conference for the remainder of her career and if that was her thinking then throwing the program you came from under the bus for made up nonsense so you don't have to sit out a year would show a lack of character in my opinion. If there truly was some type of trauma besides losing going on at Duke then good luck to her but maybe they should be called out for it.

If the “big 3” plus Miller was not able to win a natty championship what makes her think adding just her into the mix - when they and most of their starters have all graduated... will win one for BC?? Hubris...

It would appear that most have 10-12 freshman on the roster the past few years

Not going to start - really? She was by far their most talented player.

No, it would not appear that most would have 10 - 12 Freshmen on the roster the past few years.

2019 Freshmen on Ivy Rosters:

9 - Princeton
11 - Penn
9 - Dartmouth
8 - Cornell
11 - Brown
7 - Columbia
7 - Harvard
11 - Yale

Below is Freshmen Class 2016 and Senior Class 2019:

Princeton: ...... 7 as freshmen - 7 as seniors
Penn: ............. 6 as freshmen - 4 as seniors
Dartmouth: .. 10 as freshmen - 8 as seniors
Cornell: .......... 8 as freshmen - 7 as seniors
Brown: ........... 8 as freshmen - 5 as seniors
Columbia: ...... 8 as freshmen - 7 as seniors
Harvard: ........ 8 as freshmen - 6 as seniors
Yale: .............. 6 as freshmen - 3 as seniors

Most players continue to play, they do not quit. Some stop playing due to injury and each year some stop for their own reasons but the majority continue to play. Also, keep in mind that in some situations players are brought in to help with the Academic Index . I would guess those players would be more likely to stop playing if they were not brought in for their lacrosse and or athletic ability.

Actually at Dartmouth 9 of the 10 players played all four years.

Most players do not quit.

Can someone actually show where there are so many saying that most stop playing . You sound like a bunch of nut jobs arguing against people who don’t exist .

Check the post above your post... Direct quote responding to 6 of 8 Yale seniors quitting...

- "It happens at all the Ivy's, if you're not playing after two years it's time to move on, a lot of kids will opt for study abroad and many other options available to them rather than be a practice dummy, there's no scholarship money to lose, so its a choice that is easily made".

Someone also stated....

- "It would appear that most have 10-12 freshman on the roster the past few years".

Both statements are not true. Why do some people like to post BS?

Also, The have been many, many posts over the years claiming that 50% of the players will quit. Bald Bear, a regular on this site has been saying it for years. Maybe if you look at all players in Division I, II and III maybe that is the case but I doubt it.

The problem is that some like to post nonsense and BS that simply is not true. Why would someone want to do that?

These threads re-start every year. I have been reading for over 7 years now and two things have been stated on here over and over throughout the years: Girls quit in college and HS "stars" ride the bench more often than not in college.

Just two of the myths....

You myth busters are ridiculous. Again have not seen where someone says most players stop playing in college, the fact is every college and every sport have a certain number of players who leave the team for various reasons ."HS "stars" ride the bench more often than not" , not really sure anyone has said this and seems like you have created your own myth saying its been said numerous times. Again the fact is depends on your definition of riding the bench, superstar etc., many of the top players who go to the top programs do indeed spend more time on the sideline than in the game in their freshman years and some , not the majority , will never spend more time on the field than on the sideline.

Do you HEAR yourselves??? It's about the education and the place your daughter feels MOST comfortable in. Most importantly your daughter's HAPPINESS!!! I don't care if it's the most prestigious school, or the best lacrosse program. At the end of the day it's not about the lacrosse. It's about her happiness, how she develops as a person, relationships etc. It's a game....

Well said.

Yes she chose the place she felt most comfortable. How is it wrong that it also happens to be a high level of lacrosse and a great academic school? She can be happy, develop as a person and relationships there as well. She somehow would have a better chance of doing that at a lower academic school with a lesser lacrosse program?

Just an FYI, 95% of all botc posters never played a sport in college. 80% never played lacrosse.

I don’t care if my daughter is completely miserable. If Maryland comes a knockin, she is going there no matter what!!

Very well said.

Hear are "arguably" the Top 20 programs.

Maryland
North Carolina
Northwestern
Syracuse
Florida
Virginia
Princeton
Penn
Boston College
Stony Brook
Penn State
Notre Dame
Loyola
Duke
Umass
Georgetown
USC
Stanford
Colorado
Denver

Throw in.... JMU, Navy, Colorado, Denver, Hopkins, Dartmouth and Umass.

Michigan had a great year maybe they will become a consistent Top 20 Program.

Vanderbilt is a great school with a solid program.

Richmond looks to be on the rise as well and is an excellent school

There are large Public Universities with excellent academics, Ivy League Schools, smaller schools with excellent academic, Top 10 - 15 Big Name Universities, New England Schools, Mid Western Schools, Mid-Atlantic schools, Southern Schools, Western / Mountain Schools, West Coast Schools, City schools, etc...

If none of those schools work go look at Towson, Hofstra, Monmouth, UConn, Bucknell, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Brown, Cornell, Rutgers, Ohio State, Virginia Tech, Louisville, Boston University, Fairfield, Marist, Jacksonville, Elon, High Point, Oregon, Arizona State, San Diego State, Cal "Berkeley", Lehigh, LIU, Villanova etc...

Army West Point is on the rise and for the right person is an excellent opportunity.

Exceptional players can most likely find a great fit at a top 10 - 20 Program. Good players will most likely be able to find a fit at one of the other programs listed. So many solid programs and schools...., most players should be able to find a good fit.

Sorry if I left a school out... Just rattling off. There are so many opportunities for so many young women.

Here we go again, An anonymous person just making statements. Nothing to back it up, no facts, no basis just throw it out there...

Just Like so many other myths.... more fake news.

By the way, there are also many, many great opportunities at Division II and Division III schools.

You can tell they never played a sport in college by their clueless posts on here.

let's hear the roll call of NCAA programs played for

I agree with that. Don't know about your percentages.... It doesn't matter, let the know nothings continue with their nonsense and be thankful that our daughters have an opportunity to play this sport in a "Hot Bed" area. More opportunity in this sport than any other sport. If your daughter is a good athlete just look look at the perennial Top 10 - 20 programs / schools that offer opportunities to the top players. It really is crazy. Average athletes can also go to great schools with the help of this sport. Take a look at soccer, basketball, track, softball etc... How many girls from Long Island go to top schools or programs each year? Long Island Girls lacrosse players go to all of the top college programs and many of the top programs are also top universities. Be thankful.

Let the stunands continue to spew their nonsense... Call them out on it and then laugh when your daughter kicks their butt on the field as well as in the classroom.

Pretty long winded answer to “you never played the sport or any other sport in college”.......sport

Personal attacks on student athletes will not be tolerated. Simply not stating a name but giving all sorts of clues as to who the person is will not be tolerated as well.

I apologize in advance if a thread loses its context if I remove an inappropriate comment, especially if its buried in a thread with multiple responses. I’ll be more diligent to nip the bad comment in the bud so the likelihood of this happening will be minimized.

There are few, actually rare, commenters that are obsessed about certain players. I don’t mind spirited responses to comments; sometimes it’s entertaining. It is not entertaining to berate an student athlete who’s participation in this sport makes this website possible.

Guess you are one of the "never played".... types. Be thankful that this sport exists, it offers opportunities to our daughters that they would not have if they focused on a different sport.

@baldbear, i appreciate your attempts to keep things from getting out of control regarding attacks on student athletes, but a few days ago some one posted on seven (7) different threads that the director of the Yellow Jackets Lacrosse club looks transgender, I have no problem criticizing her actions and business practices as there is plenty to criticize, but the person is a teacher, coach, wife and mother.. what was said ( and not removed by the moderators) was just plain wrong and unnecessarily hurtful..
Im not CR, but I do have a kid who plays for her program, and honestly she aint a bad person when you speak with her..

Agree.

agreed again!

I stay focused on the women’s college thread but any heads up can be sent to me (I had contact from someone on a boys thread-something way out of my knowledge-but I was able to remove).

How funny was the US lacrosse poll best women's player for 2019?

This is why US lacrosse is a laughingstock. Let the high school players play a minute in college lacrosse before we crown her.

I agree, Shame on US Lacrosse, they are a joke!

Comparing a younger player to the 3 u mentioned ......Is this a Joke? What is wrong with this picture?????

What’s even more ridiculous is they are putting her over all other ncaa current players and a tewaaraton award finalist included in that group. They are really putting a bullseye on that kid with both her future teammates and her competition. Very good player and will benefit from heading to UNC where she will not be opposing teams main concern ( unless of course you believe lax magazine )

ACC lax is a long way from beating up on clueless HS teams in florida

Inside Lacrosse has North Carolina, Maryland, Syracuse and Northwestern as the four favorites to win it all this spring and Boston College, Princeton and Notre Dame as the Dark Horses. (they are really going out on a limb)

What are your thoughts? Is there a non traditional power that can surprise everyone?

I think Northwestern wins it all and can't think of a non traditional top 20 team making a run. Maybe Michigan, you never know.

Michigan is way overrated, nobody beats UNC this year

I detest to admit it but, Maryland is the favorite until they lose.. that's the bottom line. BC should have won last year.. had all the pieces.. they couldnt get it done..

BC’s best shot was probably the year Kent red shirted, had she played they probably could have beaten JMU. Credit to JMU, they were built to win one year, all the seniors were peaking and they got it done. BC had probably two years where they could have gotten it done, but came up slightly short. May be awhile before either get another shot.

JMU won with excellent team defense and goalie play.
Maryland had excellent team defense and goalie play.

Give the T to the offensive players but it will be the team that plays great team D and had an excellent goalie that wins it.

Lacrosse Magazine Preseason Top 20

1 North Carolina
2 Syracuse
3 Maryland
4 Northwestern
5 Boston College
6 Princeton
7 Virginia
8 Michigan
9 Penn
10 USC
11 Notre Dame
12 Stony Brook
13 Denver
14 James Madison
15 Loyola
16 Navy
17 Florida
18 Colorado
19 Georgetown
20 High Point

BC might be too high. Is Michigan for real? No Stanford?

Obviously the Top 4 will be tough to beat depending on seeding for the tournament ... expect UNC, Syracuse, Maryland and Northwestern to be in the Final Four.

Penn will be tough. Loyola is very good. Don't think Gtown or High Point finish the year in the Top 20.

By seasons end we will see Duke, Penn State and Stanford in the Top 20.

Good luck to all.

Lacrosse Magazine Preseason Top 20 Inside Lacrosse Preseason Top 20

1 North Carolina 1 North Carolina
2 Syracuse 2 Maryland
3 Maryland 3 Syracuse
4 Northwestern 4 Northwestern
5 Boston College 5 Boston College
6 Princeton 6 Princeton
7 Virginia 7 Notre Dame
8 Michigan 8 Virginia
9 Penn 9 Denver
10 USC 10 Michigan
11 Notre Dame 11 Loyola
12 Stony Brook 12 Stony Brook
13 Denver 13 Florida
14 James Madison 14 James Madison
15 Loyola 15 Penn
16 Navy 16 Navy
17 Florida 17 USC
18 Colorado 18 Duke
19 Georgetown 19 Georgetown
20 High Point 20 Virginia Tech

Pretty similar.... 1 - 6 identical, 7 - 15 different order but all the same teams with the exception of USC and florida (IL has Florida outside the Top 15, Lax Mag has USC outside the Top 15 but both publications have them in the top 20)

What team not listed will finish in the Top 20 maybe Top 15? Stanford? Dartmouth? Towson?, Hofstra?, Umass?, Richmond?, Hopkins?

They flip Maryland and Syracuse

No Stanford makes sense as they always play a weak schedule and underperform just about every time they make the NCAA tournament .Those rankings seem about right but I would put Cuse as number 1 , UNC and MD have lost more than people . USC has lost very little but same as their west coast buddy play a horrendous schedule and get over matched come the tournament .Watch out for ND ; on paper they are as good as anyone.

Just curious...why Syracuse at #1? They had a more solid team last year and couldn’t reach final 4? Are you saying the other teams are weaker this year and Syracuse has a better chance? I feel every year they have the talent they just can’t seem to get it together. And I can’t see losing Regy helps them?

Just curious...why Syracuse at #1? They had a more solid team last year and couldn’t reach final 4? Are you saying the other teams are weaker this year and Syracuse has a better chance? I feel every year they have the talent they just can’t seem to get it together. And I can’t see losing Regy helps them?

While I agree losing Reggie may hurt especially since he was replaced with a non experienced coach but I believe MD and UNC have lost more than people realize . I would move ND up much higher , I realize the coach has underperformed but I think the make round of 8 and possibly semi , too much talent .

Give me UNC and Maryland vs the field every year. Once you get outside the top 15 there isn't much there

Why is that? Is it coaching? is t that there is not enough talent to go around? is it lack of scholarship dollars? is it lack of admissions support?

Why is it that the same schools always seem to be in the Top 15?

What programs are on the rise?

The schools on the rise do it for a year or 2 and then freefall back pretty quickly. UNC and Maryland are different as they are able to re-load every single year. And if you have ever watched low d1 lacrosse you will see first hand that there is very little talent on those teams. Gives most of our "pretty good" daughters tons of hope because after paying tens of thousands of dollars to club lacrosse my daughter is playing in college whether she wants to or not! Kidding...maybe

How has ND “underperformed”? They had an amazing season.

Apparently they didn't have all the pieces....

I believe the post said "the (ND) Coach has underperformed". Another post said "on paper Notre Dame is as good as anyone."

Notre Dame finished 2019 ranked 9th. The Irish had an excellent year.

There is a contingent of people who have believed for years that ND has under performed.

Notre Dame is certainly one of the Top 15 or so programs in the country. The Irish have finished the season ranked in the Top 20 in 8 of the past 10 years with 3 Top 10 finishes (the other two years they were ranked 25th and others receiving votes for the top 20). The knock is that they do not make the final four or win a national championship.

Notre Dame is an excellent program that consistently outperforms more than 100 other Division 1 Women's lacrosse Programs.

They will be on LI this year playing Hofstra March 22nd

ND Should have won 2-3 Natty Championships over the last 10 years. Same for FL when Gilroy was there. Coaches couldn't coach up the kids when they needed it.

I'm not a fan of the LI/YJ taking liberties type of game, but Spallina coaches up weaker kids every year. He's tough to root for and for that he always gets a tough ncaa draw but he can coach.

Coaching matters in the tournament

So, over the past 10 years Notre Dame and Florida "should have" won 50% - 60% of the National Championships games that have been played?

This could possibly be the densest post of all time.

Really, ND & Fla should have combined to have won 60% of the National Championships over the past 10 years? Foolish statement.

As far as the Stony Brook coach goes some would say he has under achieved in the playoffs every year. As far as the "NCAA Draw" goes he gets the same as everyone else. The high in-season ranking Stony Brook has received over the years is due to their gaudy regular season record. Come Tournament time their relatively weak regular season schedule impacts their seeding. That said, from what I can tell JS is a very good coach. IMHO and also based on the programs performance during JS's tenure I would say that Stony Brook is one of the Top 15 Programs in the country along with Florida and Notre Dame.

I am not the original poster however how do you think either Notre Dame or Florida would have done if you kept either roster exactly the same but changed the Head Coach ? I am not a Stony Brook fan but that man can coach. I believe Florida or ND would definitely have had a few more wins and a better draw come playoff seating with Spallina at the helm.

The only coaches that have over performed in relation to the talent they bring in the past several years in my opinion are JMU, SBU, Navy . UNC , MD have the most talented rosters so their success is not very surprising . Spallina has taken players who were not the most highly recruited or did not receive the most accolades and has turned them into some of the top players in the country . Some of it is a combo of his relentless hype machine, their weak schedule in a weak conference , their shameless stat padding but if they were not successful or competitive when they do play top teams no one would take notice . The guy knows how to coach . JMU has done it even better with less theatrics and probably less overall talent and their coach deserves more credit than she gets .

"a few more wins" is a big difference than 6 National Championships.

Florida’s best shot was with its incredible inaugural freshman class. When they were juniors/seniors was their chance to get one. Followed by the Gilroy era, still had some kick to them but less of a shot to take a championship. They have not been a serious threat since and creeping in the wrong direction ever since. ND has never been in the conversation to take one, at least from their play and results. They have always sparked “on paper” speculations, but have never been a threat to any top team.

ND has been a threat to every top team but less of a threat to be able to put it together for 3-4 hard games in a row which they need to do to win a ACC or NCAA title . They have beaten some top teams over the years and on paper always look very good but I think it’s a coaching and recruiting issue . It think recruiting wise they have gotten a lot of very highly ranked and regarded players who many other programs have considered over rated and have not developed many players who maybe were not as highly regarded by many into top NCAA players.

Gilroy is awesome. I never saw her play but met her when my daughter went on a recruiting visit to West Point. West Point was not the right fit for my daughter, but Gilroy and the head coach Skiera are the right fit for West Point. They are getting the right kids for the team AND the right kids for the academy. They really get how their team and the whole athletic program fits into the overall mission of the academy, and that they are accountable for who they recruit and how that person performs and fits overall, not just on the lacrosse field. If your kid is considering an academy, the program is on the rise, and the coaches there get the big picture of what your athlete will be doing for the next several years after they graduate.

I would say that these highly ranked players were not overlooked by other programs but they chose to go to Notre dame instead of these other programs. Believe me I’m sure a lot of these top players had many choices as to where to play and go for college.

No one said overlooked but perhaps overrated. Not saying that these top players did not have many choices but I know many of these highly ranked players that ended up at ND were not as highly recruited by some of the other top schools as they were by ND.

Gibberish.

"Gibberish" the go to post of the unaware. If you have nothing to add just say nothing.

Agree with this post.

The first mistake any person following this sport makes is embracing the "rankings" of these players.

It's an annual hype-machine where Florida and Notre Dame are up there as the top recruiting classes, only to be stopped in big games by other schools that recruited girls from the (if you ask the know-it-alls) middle of the pack.

Quite honestly, the lack of results (from these two schools in particular) leads us to one of these two:

* the players and recruiting classes are / have been completely overrated

or

* the coaching staffs are incompetent

Pick one.

Because (it seems like) every year the lax magazines have the incoming freshmen heading to those campuses as minutes away from revolutionizing the game. With no follow-up when they fall flat over their four years.

Quite honestly, it's a tired tune.

The "tired tune" comes from people like you who sing the song of how the players who are recognized by Inside Lacrosse, Under Armour and the coaches at the top college programs do not do well when they get to college.

The reality is that the Top 40 as ranked by Inside Lacrosse are for the most part the same players who are selected for the Under Armour Senior Game and by in large are the top recruits at the best college programs.

The large majority of these players go on to have very good college careers playing on the top teams.

I disagree only in the sense that it does not need to be either or but might be a combination of both . Perhaps the coaching staffs are not great evaluators of talent and tend to rely on rankings etc when recruiting , I know that many don’t think the rankings matter to coaches but they do to some . The person who just thinks the rankings are a spot on indicator of talent is just ridiculously naive . On a side note Spallina has already started his nonsense , seems in his opinion SBU has the best player in the country every year , sorry but should not even be in the conversation this year other than the relentless Spallina BS machine and the overmatched stat padding while playing a hideous schedule .

It is always a combination of both coaching and talent. The best coaches will not win if they do not have adequate talent and the worst coaches will not win even if they have the most talent.

I do not recall anyone stating that "the rankings are a spot on indicator of talent". However, for the most part the teams that consistently bring in the most highly touted (IL Top 30 - 40 and Under Armour All-Americans) constantly outperform the teams that do not bring in the highly regarded recruits.

The detractors would have us believe that Florida and Notre Dame are floundering programs when that is far from reality. Both Florida and Notre Dame are excellent programs and I would argue that they are both Top 15 caliber programs. The only programs that consistently outperform Florida and Notre Dame are the other programs that also bring in the "Ranked Recruits".

Looking back over the past 8 years only "8" Programs have finished the season ranked in the Top 20 every year.

Maryland
North Carolina
Northwestern
Syracuse
Virginia
Princeton
Penn
Florida

The next group finished 7 of 8 years ranked in the Top 20 at the end of the season.

Notre Dame
Stony Brook
Boston College
Penn State.

These are the most consistent programs, they are competitive each and every year.

Don’t like SB. Think spallina is top 5 coach on the country wish he coached my daughters team who is a top 10 team that will be wrecked by coach That said the Kennedy kid absolutely is a top 5 player in the country and to be honest I wish our coach fought for her players. Regardless

I just look at the stats from the quality games.
Good players show up!
Also who are they surrounded by. I don’t care how many goals you score against weak teams... who cares about that.

Keep talking to yourself.

ND and Florida each had the talent and teams to win at least 1 championship each over the last 10+ years. Neither did because when they needed the coaching, it wasn't good enough.

Florida should have advanced to the final game in 2012.. they scored the game winner in OT but goal was called off after the stick check. Syracuse scored and Alyssa Murray pulled the goal scorers stick strings so hard after they coulda played tennis with that stick**.. ( great game..check youtube) Florida probably wouldn't have beaten Northwestern that year either but you never know

**Thats the reason goal scorers drop their stick after each goal now... in case ya didn't know

Your post is nonsense. Your daughters team is top 10 yet Spallina whose team is not top 10 is a far superior coach, how does that make sense. Absolutely top 5 is also nonsense. She is excellent on the circle, and in the clear. Puts up big numbers in a bad division ,can only use strong hand, below average shooter , does not make others around her better . If she played in a strong conference her numbers other than turn overs would be cut in half . She is a very good player but others are better and doing it against very good teams.

Reasonable statement. Both should be considered Top 15 best Programs. Talent alone will not win a championship, a team needs outstanding coaching in order to win.

I think most of the animosity directed at these programs is from jealous parents of players who did not receive as much hype as some of the top recruits at Notre Dame and Florida. From what I have seen these schools primarily lose to Top 10 - 20 caliber Programs. They lose to the other programs that bring in highly ranked (top 40) recruits.

Hi - does anyone have experience with transferring to another D1 school or any tips or advice for a player who feels school is not a good fit.

Tip #1: don’t ask for advice on BOTC.

That is a broad question.

What year is your daughter?

Did your daughter sign a National Letter of Intent?

Is your daughter currently receiving an "athletic grant-in-aid / athletic scholarship"?

Is your daughter currently enrolled in the spring semester?

Is your daughter currently on the roster?

Does your daughter plan on finishing out the season, semester on her current team?


Other coaches can not talk to your daughter until she is officially in the "Transfer Portal". If your daughter is currently receiving athletic $$ she will need to ask her current institution for a "release". I believe that if the school does not approve a release the student athlete must sit out 1 year of competition.

Your daughter must request to be put in the Transfer Portal by her current institution. Your daughter can talk to her coach or go directly to the compliance department at her current school and ask to be placed in the Portal.

All NCAA affiliated institutions have access to the Transfer Portal and they can see the names of all of the student athletes who are looking to transfer.

Keep in mind that if your daughter asks to be put in the Portal there is a good chance that the current coach will dismiss her from the team.

Does your daughter have another school in mind? Was your daughter previously recruited by those schools?

If your daughter has particular schools in mind then ask your daughters Club or HS Coach reach out to the coaches at those schools and see if there is any interest.

that's probably the best advice I've seen on this board yet.
well played

anybody send their daughter to Northwestern and care to share how much tuition assistance was received? either athletic, academic or economic..
what is a typical offer for an incoming freshman.
annual tuition is about $75K.. ( I can't swing it without help )


obviously keep it as anonymous as possible no name, no hints.. unless of course you wanna share, then fire away.

Go to the NU website and plug in your financial info into their "Financial Aid Calculator". The Ivy's, Northwestern, Duke, ND, Stanford etc... All have extremely generous "Need Based Aid". Unlikely that your child will receive any "Academic / Merit" Aid at NU. The top recruits can be significant Athletic $$. You can not combine Athletic and Need based aid.

In our experience the financial aid calculators at places like Northwestern are pretty accurate.

Absolutely correct. The Financial Aid calculator at Ivy's Duke, NW, Hopkins and Stanford are all very accurate. Other schools not so much. In many cases you can receive more money in need based aid than they will offer athletically. Even if you have high income. Even if you make over 200k you can still get about 70% in need based aid. The hard part is getting into those schools. Lacrosse helps with that part. They will make sure you can afford it and do what works best.

So how does that work if you take need based aid over athletic ? Does your status as a recruited athlete change ? What if you have already signed NLI ? Is there any downside to choosing need based vs athletic ?

Anybody have any updates from scrimmages this weekend? I know not easy to draw any conclusions in scrimmages.

2020 IWLCA Division III Coaches Poll – January 27, 2020



The 2020 season kicks off the same way it ended, with 2019 National Champion Middlebury Panthers sitting atop the preseason IWLCA Division III Coaches Poll. The Panthers grabbed all twenty-five first place votes to put them ahead of Tufts, Salisbury, Gettysburg, and Wesleyan. The teams ranked in the sixth through tenth position all finished the 2019 season at the exact same rank. The NESCAC landed a total of seven teams in the top-25 poll, the most of any conference. Middlebury opens the 2020 season on February 29, when they host #14 Bowdoin College.



Rank Institution Points FPV 2019 Record Final 2019 Rank

1 Middlebury 625 25 22-1 1
2 Tufts 564 0 19-3 3
3 Salisbury 561 0 20-4 2
4 Gettysburg 549 0 19-2 5
5 Wesleyan (CT) 529 0 17-4 4
6 York (PA) 474 0 17-6 6
7 Franklin & Marshall 466 0 17-5 7
8 Washington and Lee 460 0 18-3 8
9 Amherst 444 0 14-6 9
10 Catholic 390 0 17-5 10
11 St. John Fisher 363 0 19-2 12
12 Mary Washington 348 0 16-5 11
13 TCNJ 325 0 14-6 14
14 Bowdoin 312 0 10-8 13
15 William Smith 291 0 17-3 15
16 Colby 225 0 9-7 16
17 Colorado College 210 0 18-2 17
18 Trinity (CT) 195 0 9-7 18
19 Ithaca 175 0 14-7 19
20 University of Scranton 137 0 16-3 20
21 Brockport 112 0 16-5 21
T-22 Denison 100 0 16-5 T-22
T-22 SUNY Cortland 100 0 11-6 T-22
24 SUNY Geneseo 66 0 14-5 24
25 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps 56 0 16-3 25

2020 IWLCA Division II Coaches Poll – January 27, 2020



The Adelphi Panthers have claimed the top spot in the preseason IWLCA Division II Coaches Poll. The 2019 NCAA Division II Champions collected twenty-three first place votes to put them ahead of West Chester, Le Moyne, Regis, and Queens in the top five. The Northeast-10 was well represented in the preseason poll, as six teams landed in the Top 25. The PSAC had five teams in the rankings, while the Sunshine State Conference had four. Adelphi’s first big test of the 2020 season comes on late February, when they travel south to face #8 Florida Southern (2/20) and #7 Rollins College (2/23).

Rank Institution Points FPV 2019 Record Final 2019 Rank

1 Adelphi 623 23 19-3 1
2 West Chester 579 1 20-3 2
3 Le Moyne 559 1 20-2 4
4 Regis (Colorado) 537 0 20-1 3
5 Queens (North Carolina) 516 0 19-3 5
6 Tampa 495 0 14-4 7
7 Rollins 484 0 15-3 6
8 Florida Southern 471 0 16-4 8
9 Lindenwood (MO) 396 0 16-3 14
10 Mercy 353 0 15-5 11
11 East Stroudsburg 352 0 15-6 13
12 UIndy 350 0 18-2 12
13 Limestone 340 0 18-2 16
14 Colorado Mesa 306 0 15-4 10
15 New Haven 243 0 12-7 18
16 Assumption 236 0 14-5 17
17 Bentley 205 0 11-6 19
18 Pace 186 0 11-7 21
19 Mercyhurst 181 0 13-7 20
20 Grand Valley State 177 0 14-4 22
21 Seton Hill University 107 0 11-9 23
22 New York Tech 102 0 13-5 24
23 Saint Leo 97 0 13-4 NR
24 Mount Olive 95 0 14-6 25
25 Indiana (Pennsylvania) 33 0 10-8 NR

2020 IWLCA Division I Coaches Poll – January 27, 2020



The Maryland Terrapins, 2019 National Champions, narrowly edged out North Carolina to claim the top spot in the preseason IWLCA Division I Coaches Poll. Maryland garnered 15 first place votes, while the Tar Heels collected the other 10. Northwestern landed in the third spot, followed closely by Syracuse and Boston College, to round out the top five. The ACC landed seven teams in the top-25 rankings, the most of any conference, while the Big Ten had four schools listed and the Ivy League and Pac-12 each had three. Fans won’t have too long to wait before Maryland and North Carolina square off in a February 28 matchup in Chapel Hill.



Rank Institution Points FPV 2019 Record Final 2019 Rank

1 Maryland 608 15 22-1 1
2 North Carolina 605 10 17-4 3
3 Northwestern 556 0 16-5 4
4 Syracuse 546 0 16-5 5
5 Boston College 539 0 22-2 2
6 Princeton 471 0 16-4 6
7 Notre Dame 429 0 14-5 9
8 Virginia 425 0 13-7 7
9 Michigan 417 0 16-4 11
10 Denver 382 0 16-4 8
11 Loyola 359 0 16-5 10
T-12 Penn 329 0 12-6 14
T-12 Stony Brook 329 0 16-5 12
14 Florida 302 0 14-7 13
15 Navy (USNA) 256 0 16-5 16
16 Southern California 253 0 16-4 17
17 James Madison 238 0 16-4 15
18 Colorado 167 0 11-8 19
19 Georgetown 165 0 12-9 18
20 Stanford 146 0 13-6 23
21 Duke 128 0 11-8 21
22 Dartmouth 115 0 11-6 20
23 Virginia Tech 93 0 8-10 25
24 Johns Hopkins 91 0 10-8 22
25 High Point 55 0 15-5 24

Nice to see 3 Long Island Players on the cover of Lacrosse Magazine.

Good luck to all this season!

Let the Games begin!

Big one for Hofstra tomorrow with USC in town and some local girls coming home. Long Shot but i smell an upset.

SBU at Syracuse on Monday.... anything is possible but SU is loaded... SBU vs Hofstra this year... love to see it, they should play every year.

Some other notable games tomorrow:

Florida - Colorado
Towson - Penn State
Navy - Virginia
JMU - Carolina
UMass - Boston College
Denver - Stanford

On Sunday:

Duke - Northwestern

LIU goes DI This Year!!!!

LIU - Rutgers .... Lets Go LIU!

Good luck to everyone this season.

I will b at SBU VW SU game. Should be good.

Umass!!!!

Great win for UMass, BC might be a little too high in polls due to their past performances. I went to Hofstra yesterday and watched a very good game, although a little sloppy at times. I attribute that to first game jitters. Hofstra had USC and let it slip away. Hofstra is no pushover anymore, they have a hammer of a schedule but may surprise some teams. Good luck to all

Was an excellent win for UMass and yes BC way too high a ranking . They will end up 15-20 and possibly out of the top 20 by end of year.
Hofstra is no pushover and they do play a stronger schedule than usual , not sure I would say a hammer schedule lots of cupcakes on it . USC on the other hand I don’t believe plays any teams that will end up being top 10 and possibly none that end up top 20 , Stony Brook will be their most difficult game . To their credit I think coming all the way across the country is a big disadvantage to any team.

Obviously it's early but.... Top 4 look about right.

Team Defense is what wins National Championships.... Northwestern needs to tighten up if they want to be in the conversation.

Has Maryland reloaded?

Is Syracuse really a Final Four Caliber team?

Looks like Boston College might struggle this year, ACC is not a very forgiving conference.

Michigan might be a little overrated.

Hofstra looks like they will be tough.

Denver looks like the Best of the West.

Stony Brook has challenged themselves early. SBU opens with Syracuse, they also have Florida and Princeton and a trip out to USC.

IMHO... North Carolina is the team to beat.

There are a lot of very good teams between 5 - 20 not sure if any can get to the Final Four.

Are there any teams not currently ranked in the Top 25 that can make some noise? Hofstra? Richmond? anyone else???

Week 1 Media Poll

1 - North Carolina
2 - Maryland
3 - Northwestern
4 - Syracuse
5 - Princeton
6 - Notre Dame
7 - Virginia
8 - Michigan
9 - Denver
10 - Stony Brook
11 - Loyola
12 - Florida
13 - Navy
14 - Boston College
15 - UMass
16 - Penn
17 - USC
18 - Duke
19 - Colorado
20 tie - James Madison
20 tie - Georgetown

Michigan too high. flip Boston College and Umass. Penn should be higher. How will Notre Dame do this year?

Stony Brook has a tough test today.

Who is the Dark Horse?

Understood, I meant a hammer schedule for Hofstra. USC, Hopkins, Maryland, Boston College, Notre Dame and Stony Brook is a top 20 out of conference schedule. Plus the CAA is not a pushover conference. I know it is not the ACC but it is much better than the Big South, NEC, MAAC etc.

Hofstra is a very solid team. Very tough out of conference schedule and you are correct, the CAA is a good conference. Hofstra is going to be in some battles and they need to win 2 or 3 of their tough OOC games. Would love to see them win the CAA an get AQ, Not sure if The CAA will get 2 teams. I think they will beat SBU.

Stony Brook game is unwatchable. Do they actually practice the flop to the ground after every shot. I wonder if they use those big pole vaulter mats or something a little smaller .

Entertaining Stony Brook victory tonight over Syracuse. Why Gait didn’t use a time out while his team hemorrhaged is beyond me. Some nice highlight goals for both sides. Not sure what a 17-16 game tells you about either team this early. If Stony Brook doesn’t win the last draw it’s probably an OT game. Felt nostalgic sitting on the SB side of the stands. Great early season game.

Syracuse Vs Stony Brook game was fun to watch and both teams are very good. Should be an interesting year and maybe one or two of the teams ranked between 5 - 20 will end up in the Final Four.

North Carolina will be there. We will find out soon if Maryland has reloaded, The Terps play their next 4 vs Florida, Syracuse, North Carolina and Navy.... Syracuse obviously has talent but it just seems like something is missing, not sure they will be a Final Four Team. Just like last year, Northwestern gives up too many points but I think they will make it to Championship Weekend but do not think they will win it.

Loyola to The Final Four??

Question for the group. Watched the SB v Cuse game last night. Both teams are soooo aggressive. Do you think this is a result of having male coaches? Both of these coaches seem to embrace the aggressive clear/fast break, the behind the back shots, ect. It was a fun game to watch.

Before everyone gets on me about men coaches being aggressive, I do understand that there are women coaches that are aggressive also....UF, MD, NW, ect. Just thought about it since both teams last night had men coaches and both teams played with a similar style.

Is there a different way to play than they did? You propose teams play soft, as opposed to aggressive? Not sure what you're getting at... both those Teams compete because they have coaches who get buy-in from their players.

with are you talking about. No where in my post did I propose other teams play soft. There are many styles of play. If you think all teams play the same style you don't watch much lacrosse/sports. Also aggressive is not meant as a negative. It was a great game to watch. My daughter plays college lacrosse and I wish they played with a more aggressive style.

I have no idea how many men HC's are in DI women's lacrosse. My guess is that it's a small %. Men's lacrosse in general is a more aggressive game in nature. Do the coaches that have played the men's game bring some that mentality to there coaching style? SB coach definitely brings that edge to his team. It was just a thought watching a game with two men HC's(which you do see very often) with similar styles of play.

IMHO: The stronger teams play a more aggressive style of lacrosse due to their athleticism. I do not think it is due to having a male coach. The top programs recruit speed. With the exception of the prolific goal scorer coaches want athletes who can move. In this day and age everybody can throw and catch but you will not compete with the top programs if you do not have adequate team speed. The top programs play at a faster pace.

Agreed with the exception that after watching many years of top level lacrosse I am still not overly impressed with the stick skills ie catching and throwing. You have tewaaraton favorites who can barely use their weak hands etc.

Also, It looks like most of the stronger teams play more competitive schedules and they have to be more aggressive in order to keep pace. Simply put, the better teams play a faster, more intense, more aggressive game.

It is the way of the game... Go watch the Boy's / Men play.... very few players are proficient with both hands. Read.... Box Lacrosse influence ...

DIVISION I

Offensive Player of the Week

Kaitlyn Cerasi – University of Massachusetts

Cerasi posted four goals and two assists in a 15-11 win against #5 Boston College on Saturday, helping the Minutewomen to their first win against the Eagles since 2008 and marking its first win against a top-five opponent in program history. The senior attacker, a 2019 IWLCA second-team All-Region selection, was an integral part of the come from behind effort, as her team poured in six of the game’s final seven goals to claim the victory.

Defensive Player of the Week

Carson Gregg – University of Denver

Gregg led the #10 Pioneers to a 17-13 season opening win against #20 Stanford, recording 14 saves, two ground balls, and two caused turnovers. The senior goalkeeper was a 2019 IWLCA second-team All-Region selection and also named the 2019 Big East goalkeeper of the year.


DIVISION II

Offensive Player of the Week

Carly Vaccaro – University of Tampa

Vaccaro led the way for the sixth-ranked Spartans as they defeated the University of Huntsville in Alabama Chargers 22-11. In the game, the senior attacker scored a program-record seven goals. She scored those goals on seven shots and went on to add three assists to rack up 10 total points in the win.

Defensive Player of the Week

Gabby Tanner – Rollins College

Tanner’s team notched a 19-10 victory over #23 Saint Leo last week, and the junior goalkeeper posted 10 saves and two ground balls in the winning effort. With three games under her belt this season, Tanner has a .500 save percentage to go with a 7.02 goals against average. The #7 Tars are off to a 3-0 start and will welcome top-ranked Adelphi to campus on February 23.

DIVISION III

Offensive Player of the Week

Jade Cox – Birmingham-Southern College

Cox was an offensive force for the Panther against Life University, scoring 10 goals on 16 shots to propel her team to a 17-16 win. With her performance, Cox set a new program record for career goals with 193. The senior midfielder also corralled eight draw controls, scooped up four ground balls, and caused two turnovers.

Defensive Player of the Week

Payton Bennett – Rhodes College

Bennett served up several career-highs in Rhodes' 20-3 dominating season-opening win over Southwestern University. The sophomore scored three goals on four shots and picked up three ground balls and caused four turnovers. Bennett finished the day with career-highs in assists (six), points (nine) and caused turnovers (four), leading an offense which scored on 20 of 28 shots on goal.

Notre Dame vs Northwestern ..... Predictions??

The Duke transfer is brutal to watch , different uniform same douchie celebration .Duke is better w/o her.

Perhaps you feel that way because you have to watch it over and over and over again. Like the energizer bunny, she keeps going and going and going. Good for her for getting out of Durham...

No I feel that way because it’s just douchie . Seems like Duke is heading in the right direction while BC is heading in the opposite direction, coincidence in regard to the transfer , I don’t think so . Yes good for her to leave a much better academic school with a lacrosse program on the rise to join a lesser academic school with a sinking ship of a program . Energizer bunny might want to win something before she celebrates every goal like an NCAA championship .

Duke is on the rise because they have quality wins this season against...Gardner-Webb and Wofford? Yes, this freshman class has talent, but beat someone first before you claim to be "on the rise". How about 5 top 20 wins this year, maybe even make the playoffs again?

Honestly, what is wrong with the two of you?

The Top 4 are no more...

Team Defense and strong goalie play is what wins National Championships... Just ask Maryland. 8 goals will get the headlines but Defense and 14 saves is what wins.

Syracuse ?? Final Four??? Not sure...

BC off from past few years.

Michigan was overrated.

Hofstra is solid.... SBU is Very Good ...

North Carolina is defiantly the team to beat. Best Defense in the country!

Dartmouth will challenge for an IVY Title.

Florida is obviously very good but will never win with 1 player taking 50% of the shots...

Notre Dame ?? Is this their Year?

The team with the best Team D will win the National Championship.

Tough to cheer for BC w the North defection. We also beat on teams w stat padding. Go look at the final three minutes of BC vs BU up by 10 Bad job here by north and AW Heard there was some shady exchanges pulling her from Duke wonder if ncaa gets involved

Navy will beat Duke today.

It is very early but it looks like we are going to have an interesting year. Not sure if anyone is going to beat UNC but it looks like there are a bunch of teams in the Top 15 - 20 who have a shot at making it to the Final Four.

1 - North Carolina
2 - Notre Dame
3 - Florida
4 - Virginia
5 - Princeton
6 - Maryland
7 - Stony Brook
8 - Denver
9 - Syracuse
10 - Navy
11 - Loyola
12 - Penn
13 - Northwestern
14 - USC
15 - JMU
16 - Dartmouth
17 - Colorado
18 - Hofstra
19 - Michigan
20 - Boston College

Hofstra?

Those are not real rankings . Too many things wacky about them to even consider .

If not Hofstra, who? Not sure Boston College belongs in the Top 20. Richmond? Duke? Penn State? UMass? Virginia Tech? Stanford?

It will be interesting to see how the Polls / Rankings look this week but for now this persons opinion is as good as any. Just for discussion.

Penn, Denver and Loyola are all pretty good, possibly all Top 10 at the end of the season.

1 - North Carolina
2 - Notre Dame
3 - Florida
4 - Virginia
5 - Princeton
6 - Maryland
7 - Stony Brook
8 - Denver
9 - Syracuse
10 - Navy
11 - Loyola
12 - Penn
13 - Northwestern
14 - USC
15 - JMU
16 - Dartmouth
17 - Colorado
18 - Hofstra
19 - Michigan
20 - Boston College

I’m just wondering what Hofstra has to put them in the conversation.

Clearly a father posted that I’m certain it wasn’t the big Bucknell win

Hofstra did in fact receive votes in the Inside Lacrosse Poll. A poll that has BC ranked ahead of UMASS who BC lost to and UMASS ranked ahead of Dartmouth who UMASS lost to... a bit of a joke....

Perhaps it was a USC parent who was relieved with the outcome of a close game with Hofstra...…

The game is growing which is awesome for the sport. The great game between Florida and Maryland shows that more and more talented players are flooding into lots of great schools.

Oh and btw, donkeythe girls working hard on and off the field at Bucknell (and all collegiate athletes for that matter) don't need your negative comments. Players should be supported for their decisions to play while continuing with their education regardless of their teams division or ranking.

2020 looks like it will be a fun year. There could be 10 -15 teams with a legitimate chance to make the Final Four. Seeding will be critical....

Although it is early there appears to be more parity with the top 10 - 20 programs.

Are there any teams not currently in "any" of the Top 20 Rankings that could make a run and surprise everyone?

[quote=Anonymous]2020 looks like it will be a fun year. There could be 10 -15 teams with a legitimate chance to make the Final Four. Seeding will be critical....

Although it is early there appears to be more parity with the top 10 - 20 programs.

Are there any teams not currently in "any" of the Top 20 Rankings that could make a run and surprise everyone?

Penn State or VA Tech

[quote=Anonymous]1 - North Carolina
2 - Notre Dame
3 - Florida
4 - Virginia
5 - Princeton
6 - Maryland
7 - Stony Brook
8 - Denver
9 - Syracuse
10 - Navy
11 - Loyola
12 - Penn
13 - Northwestern
14 - USC
15 - JMU
16 - Dartmouth
17 - Colorado
18 - Hofstra
19 - Michigan
20 - Boston College

Michigan dropped 11 spots with a road loss to a ranked USC team?

yeah Hofstra. should be ranked behind wagner, like 46. come on man

get Hofstra out of there. not top 30.

CAA awful this year.

Above is just a ranking by a single poster here on BOTC... That being said Hofstra received votes in both of the Media polls...(Nike and Maverik) However, Hofstra was not in the IWLCA Coaches Poll which lists 25 teams not 20 teams....

At this point in the season Hofstra should certainly be in the conversation for Top 20...

Why , who have they beat , their best game was a close loss to a team that traveled across the country and are offensively challenged . Beat a top 20 team if you want to get I to the top 20.

Why? Have they beaten anyone good?

2020 IWLCA Division I Coaches Poll – February 17, 2020



Four of the top five teams in the Preseason Poll lost within the first two weeks of the regular season leaving North Carolina (3-0) to stand alone atop the first regular season poll with all 25 first place votes. After taking down Northwestern on the road, Notre Dame (3-0) jumped five spots to land in the second position. Maryland (1-1) fell to third after losing a close one to Florida (2-0), who shot up to number four. Stony Brook (2-0) also entered the top five on the strength of their season-opening 17-16 win over Syracuse (3-1). Massachusetts (1-1) and Penn State (2-0) entered the poll for the first time in 2020, while Johns Hopkins and High Point dropped out.

Top 25 matchups this week start on Friday when Boston College travels to Southern California. Weekend games include Loyola at Florida, Maryland at North Carolina, Syracuse at Northwestern, and Virginia at Princeton on Saturday and Colorado at Michigan on Sunday.



Rank Institution Points FPV Record Last Poll
1 North Carolina 572 25 3-0 2
2 Notre Dame 548 0 3-0 7
3 Maryland 533 0 1-1 1
4 Florida 507 0 2-0 14
5 Stony Brook 498 0 2-0 T-12
6 Northwestern 484 0 3-1 3
7 Syracuse 445 0 3-1 4
8 Virginia 416 0 3-0 8
9 Princeton 369 0 1-0 6
10 Denver 362 0 2-0 10
11 Penn 342 0 1-0 T-12
12 Loyola 335 0 1-0 11
13 Southern California 294 0 2-0 16
14 Michigan 288 0 1-1 9
15 Boston College 284 0 2-1 5
16 Navy (USNA) 207 0 2-1 15
17 James Madison 195 0 2-1 17
18 Colorado 155 0 0-1 18
19 Dartmouth 130 0 1-0 22
20 Massachusetts-Amherst 120 0 1-1 NR
21 Duke 118 0 2-2 21
22 Virginia Tech 97 0 2-1 23
23 Georgetown 75 0 1-1 19
24 Stanford 51 0 1-2 20
25 Penn State 22 0 2-0 NR

At this point in the season the polls are a bit of a joke. Boston College is ranked ahead of both Umass and Dartmouth... What has BC done? Until teams have a significant body of work these polls are meaningless. For example, Hofstra has as much of a claim to the Top 20 as Michigan. We really don't know where teams should be ranked yet.

Yes and no , you can look at last years performance and look at key returning players etc. Honestly they had BC ranked way to high from the start. When you lose your 3 best offensive players and like 75 percent of your offense among others you are going to take a big step back. Hofstra has not been good for years so they really dont have as much of a claim.If you dont think UNC, MD, ND are going to be top 5 at end of season you just have not been paying attention even thou ND is the only one with a quality win this year.

Hofstra trying to become relevant is great. Stony Brook looks great. I'm rooting for the Long Island teams with the girls that were not highly recruited by many on the list above

Hofstra has most of their team returning and on paper should be just as good as Stony Brook and many teams in the top 15. Now will that happen we will see, if they can not be relevant this year they probably will never be. SB seems to have different kids step up each year. Having good local lacrosse on LI is so great for the youth players to see

Hofstra has 3 legit senior studs. They could play almost anywhere. Hopefully they make an appearance in the NCAA’s this year. Go Long Island!!!!

As the game continues to grow on a national level, some very good LI girls may not have as many opportunities to choose from. I still think the superstars can write their own ticket, but those very talented second level kids may not have as many doors opening up and decide to stay local. IMHO Hofstra not a top 15 team but could be around 20-25 . based upon the new rankings they still need to play 3 top 5 teams this year, MD, ND and SB. Ouch

That’s just a ridiculous post. Just as good on paper as many teams in the top 15 is ridiculous , they had a mediocre season last year and their 3 studs that can play anywhere is just as ignorant . They play in a weak conference and perform average at best . Stony Brook will maul them , running clock at some point.

Very typical response. Aside from playing in a weaker conference than Hofstra and running up the score on inferior opponents what exactly has Stony Brook done? They have put up gaudy numbers vs weak teams and they have recorded strong regular season records while playing a relatively weak schedule (compared to traditional top 15 teams) but in the end that's all that they have done. When you break it down and look at the actual results, they have under achieved and or s#%! the bed every year in the playoffs. Stony Brook is certainly a very good program but they have been over hyped more than any team in the history of women's lacrosse.

Really ignorant response after SBU just beat the 3rd ranked team in the country. When was the last time Hofstra beat a top 5 team

They said typical, not ignorant

Hofstra has really good players and so does Stony Brook biggest difference is Stony Brook has a real coach and Hofstra has an emotional roller coaster leading our team That’s the major difference that’s why SB has beat many ranked opponents and we play ranked opponents tough but can not finish games It’s the truth and it hurts. Hopefully this year both can make the post season

Kids love playing for Joe. Kids transfer from Hofstra in masses. Ask anyone connected to Hofstra you will see former Hofstra players on other local rosters. Not the same stony brook.

Yeah, no. Only transfers are those who think they are stars but instead sit on the bench.

I've heard from former players that they couldn't wait to be rid of JS. Not as well-liked as some attest.

Correct, how many of those recent transfers went on to play for another D1 team. I do remember one girl transferring to SB from Hofstra back in 2017

Only girls who transfer from Hofstra are those who want to enjoy the experience instead of dealing with a situation that blows.

Do you also remember her screaming parent? Not missed at HU.

Don’t know the screaming Parent but with all do respect - not lit if talent Most of the Hofstra recruits weren’t the superstars in HS. Shame that girls go there with hope that they will enjoy the memories and get a school in a bad area with no football and a coach who doesn’t make it fun. Maybe that is why they leave? Just a thought...have you ever seen her on the sideline. This is not classy coaches like Tom Landry or joe Gibbs.

Time for BC to leave the rankings

Question , seems that BC will not make the NCAA tournament this year as they are heading for a sub 500 record . Duke will have no top 25 wins in the season but because they play a terrible non conference schedule and will end up over 509 do they get in

My daughter graduated and played for her at Hofstra. First two years were completely toxic transfers losses tantrums the third year was a little better. Senior year was a combination of our daughter saying”it’s my last year “ and a little bit more team success. So while there was improvement it wasn’t as fast as any of us wanted including many disgruntled alums Think she will continue to improve can recall this senior class is the one she thought could make things happen with so I believe this year is a big one

I hope you aren't lumping in JS with classy coaches. Puh-leeze. Not well-liked by other coaches for his antics and BS.

I'm sure NO one goes to SB for football, so rest that case. SB not in a good area, very isolated.

And doesn't SB pride itself on not getting the superstars yet creating something from who they do get? Seems Hofstra can do the same.

Poor Acacia was sold a bill of goods on that stellar recruiting class... and IL bought it too!!

Maybe the Duke transfer should of stayed at Duke. Looks like BC staff has to actually coach now

Maybe the Duke transfer should of stayed at Duke. Looks like BC staff has to actually coach now [/quote]


What makes you an expert? Boston is light years ahead of Durham as a college town. Go back to banging your keyboard, Mr. Clueless.

Hofstra squeaks by Fairfield. Doesn’t sound like a good team to me. Good luck against the ranked teams on your schedule... It’s gonna get pretty bad over there

Not sure what recruiting class you are referring to but no coach is sold a bill of goods. Coaches evaluate talent and the recruit the players that they think will help their program win. The Inside Lacrosse staff watch the players and they make their own judgement and rank the players.

Sounds to me that you are just another bitter parent who simply can not believe that Inside Lacrosse and one of the best coaches in the game think that other players are stronger than your daughter.

Just more sour grapes from another delusional jealous parent.

Here is the reality. Stony Brook is an excellent program, IMHO certainly one of the 15 Best Programs (over the past 7-8 years) in the country. That said, They have been given way too much hype. Based on all the hype... Stony Brook has actually under achieved when it matters most in the NCAA Tournament.

2013: # 10 end of regular season # 11 in the final Poll.. : 16 - 2 going into the tournament. Lost to Maryland in the round of 16.

2014: # 20 end of regular season # 20 in the final Poll.. : 16 - 3 going into the tournament. Lost to Syracuse in round of 16.

2015: # 6 end of regular season # 11 in the final Poll.. : 18 - 1 going into the tournament. Lost to Princeton in round of 16.

2016: # 7 end of regular season # 8 in the final Poll.. : 15 - 3 going into the tournament. Lost to Syracuse in round of 16.

2017: # 4 end of regular season # 4 in the final Poll.. : 18 - 1 going into the tournament. Lost to Maryland in round of 8.

2018: # 1 end of regular season # 5 in the final Poll.. : 19 - 0 going into the tournament. Lost to Boston College in round of 8.

2019: # 15 end of regular season # 12 in the final Poll.. : 15 - 4 going into the tournament. Lost to Maryland in the round of 16.


Good coach but at some point if you want to be considered up there with the best you have to at least make it to the Final Four.

BTW, I do think that JS is an excellent coach.

A few observations . 1) Duke and ND play a very weak out of conference schedule and I wonder if it’s done because the coaches are worried about their jobs . I believe if you want to be considered one of the top teams in the country you need to play some of the best teams in the country out of conference . One would hope that whe it’s time to select the teams that make the tournament and their seeds that is taken into account .
2)I think LIU is showing where these top D2 and D3 teams are in relation to D1 teams and it’s not very high . Unlike what many have claimed it seems they would be comparable to the bottom 20 teams .

Unfortunately for you that delusional parent is being proven correct and Acaicia and the inside lacrosse staff are being proven wrong ( I don’t actually believe the inside lacrosse staff actually watch the players ) .

I have not followed DII or DIII so do not know where LIU or other DII or DIII teams stack up but is guess is they would not compete with the perennial Top 15 - 20 DI Teams.

As for Duke and Notre Dame, are you really going to go there? They compete in The ACC for crying out loud... but just played Northwestern out of conference

Let me guess, you are a Flat Earther...

Reading comprehension , try it sometime. The poster was saying LIU is equivalent to a D1 team ranked somewhere in the 85-105 type range. They then specifically talked about out of conference games ( they have no choice about playing ACC games so no credit given for those teams being on their schedule ). Between the two teams they play one top team out of conference which is pathetic if they want to be considered a top team themselves. I would also say when post season awards are given out their stats against overmatched teams should be taken into consideration. There are some teams out there that play very difficult non conference schedules so good for them.

Let me guess you are a Trump -Russia collusion believer. If you think inside lacrosse evaluates every player and makes their “own” decisions you are more ill informed than the crazy parent who thinks his kid is the greatest when they aren’t . If you also think that coaches have not been “sold” on a player being something they are not you show your ignorance again.

We should see some movement, here is how the Top 25 fared...

1 - North Carolina:....... Pounded Maryland.... Running Clock with about 10 minuets left in game.
2 - Notre Dame:........... Beat Ohio State...
3 - Maryland:............... Taken to the wood shed by UNC.... Not Top 10 at this point.
4 - Florida:................... Blown out by Loyola. Maryland win not so impressive now.
5 - Stony Brook:.......... DNP. Should be well rested for trip to Florida.
6 - Northwestern:........ Lost to Syracuse in a good game.
7 - Syracuse:.............. Held on to beat Northwestern.
8 - Virginia:................. Squeaked by Princeton.
9 - Princeton:.............. Lost close one to Virginia.
10 - Denver:................. Handled Harvard.
11 - Penn:.................... Edged out Hopkins for the win.
12 - Loyola:.................. Hounds ran all over Florida.
13 - USC:..................... Too much for a Boston College team that is trying to find their way.
14 - Michigan:.............. Beat Colorado, another Running Clock.
15 - Boston College:.... Lost to USC, is BC Top 20?
16 - Navy:.................... Should have stayed in bed like their Men's Team... Lost to Villanova.
17 - JMU:..................... Win over High Point. PSU up Next.
18 - Colorado:.............. Beat up by Michigan.
19 - Dartmouth:............ Easy over BU. Could make a run at an Ivy Championship.
20 - UMass:................. Off over the weekend, They play UMass Lowell today.
21 - Duke:.................... Easy win over GW.
22 - Va Tech:................ Pulled away from Elon in the 2nd half.
23 - GTown:................. 12 - 10 over Drexel.
24 - Stanford:............... Beat UC Davis... their next 2 games will be telling.
25 - Penn State:........... Blow out over Cornell, Running Clock entire 2nd half.

It is early but it looks like 10 to 15 Teams will have a legit chance to make the Final Four, maybe more.??

The Fat Guy's opinion ranking

1 - UNC
2 - ND
3 - Stony Brook
4 - Virginia
5 - Syracuse
6 - Loyola
7 - Denver
8 - Penn
9 - Northwestern
10 - USC
11 - Princeton
12 - Florida
13 - Maryland
14 - Michigan
15 - JMU
16 - Dartmouth
17 - UMass
18 - Penn State
19 - Va Tech
20 - Stanford
21 - Duke
22 - Navy
23 - Hofstra
24 - GTown
25 - Boston College

Not bad but you really should flip Navy and Duke.

Stony brooks remaining schedule is an absolute joke. As it is every year. They Will skate by all of these lower level teams

Florida, Princeton and USC are not good enough for you....

I have been very critical of their schedule in the past but Syracuse Florida Towson USC Princeton Hopkins Colorado Stanford is a very impressive non conference schedule especially being at Florida and USC

Most conference affiliations are based on Men’s and women’s Basketball definitely not lacrosse It’s actually very surprising if you look at ONLY non conference opponents of top 20 teams The ACC and BIG 10 schools have so many great on conference games their out of conference is surprisingly weaker than you would expect.

Ironically this seems to be a Hofstra homer dumping on Stony Brook, lets not forget that Hofstra is on the remaining schedule of games to be played.

All the time and analysis that went into the original post and your contribution is that #21 and #22 should be reversed? What would we do without you?

2020 IWLCA Division II Coaches Poll – February 24, 2020



West Chester (0-0) took over the top spot in the first regular season Division II Coaches Poll of 2020, after the preseason favorite, Adelphi (2-1), stumbled in early season test against Florida Southern (2-2). Le Moyne (0-0) sits in the number two spot, followed by Adelphi, Queens (2-0) and Lindenwood (3-0) to round out the top five. Regis (1-0) is ranked sixth, Tampa (3-0) seventh, and Florida Southern is eighth, while UIndy (3-0) jumped three spots into ninth, and Rollins sits in the tenth position. The only new entrant to the poll is Roberts Wesleyan (2-1), who knocked Indiana (PA) out.

The action among the top-25 gets an early start this week, as Tampa (#7) hosts #5 Lindenwood on Tuesday. Friday’s games include #19 Grand Valley State at #9 UIndy, and East Stroudsburg (#12) at #16 Saint Leo, and Saturday sees #11 Mercy squaring off against #18 Bentley, and #21 Seton Hill paying a visit to Florida Southern (#8).



Rank Institution Points FPV Record Last Poll
1 West Chester 593 19 0-0 2
2 Le Moyne 562 1 0-0 3
3 Adelphi 520 2 2-1 1
4 Queens (North Carolina) 505 0 2-0 5
5 Lindenwood (MO) 497 1 3-0 9
6 Regis (Colorado) 494 1 1-0 4
7 Tampa 490 0 3-0 6
8 Florida Southern 471 0 2-2 8
9 UIndy 468 0 3-0 12
10 Rollins 465 0 3-1 7
11 Mercy 378 0 1-0 10
12 East Stroudsburg 368 0 1-0 11
13 New Haven 287 0 0-0 15
T-14 Assumption 259 0 0-0 16
T-14 Limestone 259 0 2-1 13
16 Saint Leo 253 0 3-1 23
17 Mercyhurst 208 0 1-0 19
18 Bentley 194 0 0-0 17
19 Grand Valley State 165 0 0-0 20
20 Colorado Mesa 124 0 0-2 14
21 Seton Hill University 122 0 2-0 21
22 Mount Olive 112 0 3-0 24
23 New York Tech 99 0 0-0 22
24 Pace 85 0 0-1 18
25 Roberts Wesleyan 56 0 2-1 NR

2020 IWLCA Division I Coaches Poll – February 24, 2020



North Carolina (4-0) held onto the top spot in the Division I Coaches Poll this week after a convincing 19-6 victory over Maryland (1-2) on Saturday. Notre Dame (4-0) held onto the second spot, while Stony Brook (2-0) moved up to third, Syracuse (4-1) slotted in at number four, and Loyola (3-0) jumped seven spots to land in fifth. Northwestern (3-2), Virginia (4-0), Florida (2-1), Maryland, and Denver (4-0) comprised the back half of the top ten. There were no new entrants in this week’s poll, but there was a lot of shuffling among the teams ranked 11-25.

This week features several games that should impact next week’s poll, starting with #9 Maryland visiting fourth ranked Syracuse on Friday. Stony Brook (#3) travels to #8 Florida, Loyola (#5) squares off against #19 Penn State, and #7 Virginia welcomes top-ranked North Carolina on Saturday, while Stanford (#24) visits #6 Northwestern, and #22 Duke travels to #2 Notre Dame on Sunday.

Rank Institution Points FPV Record Last Poll
1 North Carolina 625 25 4-0 1
2 Notre Dame 598 0 4-0 2
3 Stony Brook 551 0 2-0 5
4 Syracuse 535 0 4-1 7
5 Loyola 512 0 3-0 12
6 Northwestern 492 0 3-2 6
7 Virginia 459 0 4-0 8
8 Florida 439 0 2-1 4
9 Maryland 435 0 1-2 3
10 Denver 398 0 4-0 10
11 Southern California 388 0 4-0 13
12 Penn 361 0 2-0 11
13 Princeton 344 0 1-1 9
14 Michigan 317 0 3-1 14
15 James Madison 231 0 3-1 17
16 Dartmouth 219 0 2-0 19
17 Boston College 167 0 2-2 15
18 Navy (USNA) 166 0 2-2 16
19 Penn State 155 0 4-0 25
20 Massachusetts-Amherst 148 0 1-1 20
21 Colorado 130 0 1-2 18
22 Duke 119 0 3-2 21
23 Virginia Tech 115 0 4-1 22
24 Stanford 71 0 2-2 24
25 Georgetown 22 0 2-1 23

2020 IWLCA Division III Coaches Poll – February 24, 2020



The top five teams in the Division III Coaches Poll remained the same in the first week of the regular as they were in the Preseason Poll, however, the order changed a bit. Middlebury (0-0) swept all 25 first place votes to claim the top spot, followed closely by Tufts (0-0) in the second position. Gettysburg (2-0) and Salisbury (1-0) flip flopped at number three and four, and Wesleyan (0-0) remained ranked fifth. The back half of the top ten remained the same as in the Preseason Poll, however Franklin & Marshall (1-0) and York (1-0) switched paces at numbers six and seven.

There are a few significant games involving the top 25 scheduled for the upcoming week, starting on Wednesday, when #19 Ithaca welcomes Scranton (#24) to campus, and Franklin & Marshall (#6) visits #7 York. Saturday’s games feature top-ranked Middlebury hosting #13 Bowdoin, Franklin & Marshall at #14 Mary Washington, #2 Tufts at Colby (#16), Denison (#21) at Gettysburg (#3), and Ithaca at #23 Cortland, followed by Sunday’s matchup between #8 Washington and Lee and #4 Salisbury.



Rank Institution Points FPV Record Last Poll
1 Middlebury 625 25 0-0 1
2 Tufts 585 0 0-0 2
3 Gettysburg 559 0 2-0 4
4 Salisbury 552 0 1-0 3
5 Wesleyan (CT) 520 0 0-0 5
6 Franklin & Marshall 486 0 1-0 7
7 York (PA) 475 0 1-0 6
8 Washington and Lee 450 0 1-1 8
9 Amherst 433 0 0-0 9
10 Catholic 392 0 0-0 10
11 St. John Fisher 353 0 0-0 11
12 TCNJ 345 0 0-0 13
13 Bowdoin 310 0 0-0 14
14 Mary Washington 309 0 1-1 12
15 William Smith 285 0 0-0 15
16 Colby 251 0 0-0 16
17 Colorado College 222 0 2-0 17
18 Trinity (CT) 208 0 0-0 18
19 Ithaca 183 0 1-0 19
20 Brockport 148 0 1-0 21
21 Denison 105 0 1-1 T-22
22 SUNY Cortland 89 0 0-0 T-22
23 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps 57 0 1-0 25
24 University of Scranton 52 0 0-1 20
25 Messiah 28 0 1-1NR
RV SUNY Geneseo 0-1 24

NESCAC play gets underway this weekend as D3 gets its full roster of teams playing.

All the time and analysis that went into the original post and your contribution is that #21 and #22 should be reversed? What would we do without you?
[/quote

Apparently not much time or analysis went into the original post or Navy would have been above Duke who not only lost to Navy but have beaten no one . There are some other things that are questionable but the Navy directly beating Duke seemed like an obvious miscalculation . Now go have a cookie .